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Topic: 6.5CM Newbie questions (Read 668 times) previous topic - next topic

6.5CM Newbie questions

Howdy,

New forum member. New to the Creedmore, not new to reloading, although previous reloading was not to the level I see here.

First question for the experts:

Do you "fireform" or otherwise run light loads in new brass, particularly before load development ?

Thanks very much

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #1
welcome jd...I run the same load in new brass as I do once fired or even 10 times fired.. load them up like you want to shoot them in my opinion...
Grant

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #2
Thanks Grant,

That will certainly get me to the ladder testing of powder quicker !

I've been reading prior posts to glean as much info as I can. Found quite a bit of info on the Wormy post.

I have been a test loads by how they group guy previously, and I see far more benefit to this ladder testing. And then seating depth testing.
(Have never messed with seating depth as I've always been loading to magazine length.)

Can't wait to see what I can come up with, with the good advice here.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #3
jd the 10 shot ladder test works as long as you have a good chrono and your on top of your game at the reloading bench... guess  what im saying is that everything has to be right loading the rounds... not sure where your at in your reloading journey but if you don't get the results with the 10 shot ladder test then try ocw testing... its a little more forgiving in my opinion and will yield the same results...
Grant

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #4
Welcome JD...I agree with Gman...load them the same and one thing I found helpful is running them through your sizer before the first loading on the brass. I bought a box of 500 Hornady and a lot of them are dinged on the mouth plus it will give you the same neck tension as your reloads.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #5
Welcome JD. You've come to the right place and these guys will steer you in the right direction. Technology has changed quite a bit since I first started loading and I'm still picking up tips from these guys.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you. It's what you leave behind you when you go.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #6
I read on another forum that you should optimize your seating first.. then charge weight.  They were pretty enthusiastic about it. Everything I read here is seating last.  Thoughts?

P.s.  I also read 6.5 caliber likes a .002 jump, where other calibers can be more finicky.  Perhaps it doesn't apply to us creedmoor loaders.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #7
fliers I think you mean a .020 (twenty thousandths) with .002 jump some could be touching the lands with variances in bullet length which can cause big pressure spikes... which you don't want... most of us start our powder testing with a .020 jump... find are node then get centered up in the node with powder... then play with seating depth to fine tune it... heres what I have come to realize... its all about optimal barrel time... once in the node you can achieve that either by tuning the load with seating depth... ( moving the bullet in or out causes pressure to increase or decrease which makes the bullet go faster or slower ).. or you can achieve that by increasing or decreasing powder charges in small increments which increases or decreases pressure which also speeds up or slows down the bullet to get it in the optimal barrel time...pretty cool stuff once you get down to the nuts and bolts of it...
Grant

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #8
So, on the note about being on top of my game at the bench... (I wasn't going to bring it up in the  hope it was the brass I used...) but it is driving me a little nuts and I feel I would be better off figuring out what is happening:

I have reloaded 50 pcs 6.5CM already. Was using my prior "method" of loading 5rds each of powder charges .5gr apart which I would have shot for "groups" to see what rifle liked. I had several things happen during reloading I have not experienced before, Maybe those who have or are more knowledgeable can help or point me in the right direction.

The pertinent info:
Press: RCBS Rockchucker
Dies RCBS Gold medal match full length neck bushing die set (Have not used neck bushings before, but wanted micrometer seating die and 6.5CM not offerred in RCBS Competition dies I'm familiar with that do not have neck bushings) I believe the bushing I used was .289, but also own .288 and .290.

To go with new rifle (Bergara premier HMR pro) I bought Hornady 140 eld-m ammo and 1 box 147 gr eld-m ammo.

So first reloading was using 50 pcs once fired Hornady brass from the factory ammo.
    **( My first mistake- 40pcs were from 140gr ammo, 10pcs were from 147gr ammo)

Sizing die adjustment : Exactly per RCBS instructions, die run down to touch shellholder and then run down another 1/8 turn.

First issue , sizing the 1x shot brass required more effort that I can remember needing ever before ( I've been reloading about 15 years, 223 rem, 308 Win, 300WM, 45/70, 500 S&W (Hello Ohiococonut!). )Yes I used lube (Imperial sizing lube w/ Imperial dry lube on necks) There is a shiny ring just above case head/web after sizing.

Second issue, I definitely noticed differing amounts of effort when seating bullets. (I assume this was where using brass from different lots of ammo and different grain weight ammo was a mistake)(I can only assume given the new neck bushings, maybe neck wall thickness was different between 140gr ammo brass and 147gr ammo brass)

Third issue, and most concerning is when I went to range, and I only shot 5 rounds (With magnetospeed chrono after reading about the ladder testing here) I noticed 1 or 2 of the cartridges were slightly more difficult to close bolt on. Nothing major, and no issues firing these rounds and nothing weird w/ velocities, but I don't understand why after full length sizing w/ die all the way to camming over in press, I could possibly have rounds that were "snug" to close bolt on.

So I ordered a L.E. Wilson case gauge. This tool is a machined piece of steel that is supposed to help measure (Or more correctly compare) headspace . Tool has two steps at cartridge head end that are .005 apart which are supposed to be the range of acceptable headspace. Both my fired and sized cases stand proud of tool approximately .007 to .010. So at least the good news is it would appear my die is in fact only bumping the shoulder back .003, but I was very concerned to "have excessive headspace". I called L.E. Wilson and was told this was not of great concern, they suggested the chamber in my rifle may be larger than average.

Moving forward, I have acquired 200pcs Alpha brass and 100 pcs Nosler brass. I do not intend to do much with the once fired Hornady brass.

Anyone have ideas as to what may be going on here ?
I certainly won't have any of these issues loading the new brass, but I could once that brass is fired.

Thanks for your time to read a long post and any ideas,

JD 500

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #9
JD...I am by no means an expert but have been loading CM for 3 years and 4 different rifles. There are some items missing from your info or I just missed them. First from my understanding all Hornady brass is created equal and my question on that front is. did you just neck size or did your die use an expander ball....or did you use a mandrel to expand the inside of the neck for your tension? Also did you use a chamfer tool to make seating easier? I have found the angle on the VLD style to work better on mine.

Second Question...what bullets are you using and have you checked the distance to your lands to make sure you are not jamming the bullets into the lands? On my first 6.5 I was using Sierra Game Kings and had no idea how far the lands were with those bullets. After I learned how to check that from the fine folks here on the forum, I was jamming them pretty hard into the lands and that made it difficult to close the bolt.....seating the bullet with the bolt.

Have you checked the overall length of your brass to make sure you are within the 1.920....I trim my brass every firing on the Bergara to 1.915...I am on the 5th firing of my brass and am getting very little trim now but the first couple of firings the Hornady brass grew and almost all had some trimming necessary.

Hope that helps.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #10
Gday JD, can you confirm the sizing die touches shell holder at bottom of stroke on the tight ones? Ive seen them have a small gap left between even with a bit of stiff cam over.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #11
Jd I don't think using hornady brass that had different factory bullets has anything to do with your problem. Variances in neck wall thickness is the culprit. Using a bushing die to get consistent neck tension you about have to turn the necks down to where their all the same thickness. Far as bolt being hard to close sounds like your not bumping the shoulder back enough yet. Do you use a headspace comparator to measure how much your pushing the shoulder back?. If not you need to. Measure a fired round from base to shoulder datum line the as your sizing the case keep measuring it till you push the shoulder back .002 from what a fired case measures. 
Grant

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #12
It's been a while since I have tried to size brass all in one operation so I'm not sure what sort of resistance I'd meet if I did. But, according to RCBS you should be able to remove the neck bushing and use the die to bump the shoulder without touching the neck. By breaking the process into two parts that may indicate whether it's the body/shoulder sizing that's causing the resistance versus neck sizing.

From what I've read bushing dies may require neck turning which I'm not set up to do, that's why I use the Lee collet die for necks.

Your second and third issues sound similar to what I experienced when I tried bushing dies. 
Chris

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #13
JD...I am by no means an expert but have been loading CM for 3 years and 4 different rifles. There are some items missing from your info or I just missed them. First from my understanding all Hornady brass is created equal and my question on that front is. did you just neck size or did your die use an expander ball....or did you use a mandrel to expand the inside of the neck for your tension? Also did you use a chamfer tool to make seating easier? I have found the angle on the VLD style to work better on mine.

Second Question...what bullets are you using and have you checked the distance to your lands to make sure you are not jamming the bullets into the lands? On my first 6.5 I was using Sierra Game Kings and had no idea how far the lands were with those bullets. After I learned how to check that from the fine folks here on the forum, I was jamming them pretty hard into the lands and that made it difficult to close the bolt.....seating the bullet with the bolt.

Have you checked the overall length of your brass to make sure you are within the 1.920....I trim my brass every firing on the Bergara to 1.915...I am on the 5th firing of my brass and am getting very little trim now but the first couple of firings the Hornady brass grew and almost all had some trimming necessary.

Hope that helps.

Full length sizing. Did not use expander as all necks were round, did have .289 bushing in to reduce neck size.Used a vld chamfer tool.
I have checked cbto and bullets loaded on this 50pc run were .060 off lands. (Was trying to duplicate factory ammo)
Brass trimmed to 1.910 before chamfer/debur, charging, and loading.
Bullets are Hornady 140 eld-m.

Re: 6.5CM Newbie questions

Reply #14
Gday JD, can you confirm the sizing die touches shell holder at bottom of stroke on the tight ones? Ive seen them have a small gap left between even with a bit of stiff cam over.

Nitro, that is a very interesting question. I set die to touch+ before sizing any brass, I can not say I looked to confirm die touching shellholder while I was sizing ! But I sure will next time I size. And that could be the explanation.