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The Pub => Competition => Topic started by: rardoin on September 10, 2019, 02:32:34 PM

Title: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 10, 2019, 02:32:34 PM
Who's going to the Nats in Raton next week?  I will be there to shoot the midrange team matches, the long range team matches as well as the long range individual.  I anticipate a Tuesday afternoon arrival.  If anyone heading out there perhaps we could meet and get some grub one evening.

Robin
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: sportacus on September 10, 2019, 03:32:21 PM
Wish I was going to Raton for another purpose.  As you are driving north from Amarillo, check out the TO Ranch on the right about 15-20 miles south of Raton.  Where this central Louisiana hillbilly became a pronghorn junkie.  Missed this year, but plan to be there for 2020.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 10, 2019, 05:58:25 PM
Who's going to the Nats in Raton next week?  I will be there to shoot the midrange team matches, the long range team matches as well as the long range individual.  I anticipate a Tuesday afternoon arrival.  If anyone heading out there perhaps we could meet and get some grub one evening.

Robin

Good luck Robin, I know you're prepared.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 10, 2019, 07:30:13 PM
Thanks Dave. Unlike last year I do feel prepared.

Spart…  The TO ranch is a HUGE property holding with interesting history.  That area is a beautiful part of the drive...after getting past the feed lots around Dumas and their associated aroma ::) .  I'm just about a 14.5hr drive to get to Raton but once past Stateline the beauty of the open plains and buttes makes the last couple of hours painless.

Robin
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 10, 2019, 07:35:00 PM
good shooting to ya robin... what caliber are you taking?
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: mnbogboy on September 10, 2019, 10:14:10 PM
Best of luck Robin!
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: lg65cmsd on September 11, 2019, 03:01:19 AM
Good luck, Robin!!
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 06:28:51 AM
Thanks for the support guys...it is appreciated.

Grant, I am shooting a straight .284 in a McMillan Kestros ZR stock (the Pink Panther... :D ).  As we discussed I'll be running the 184gr Berger hybrid at 2800fps over 52.3gr VV N160/BR-2.  I'll use this for the 600 and 1000yd matches.  It has been grouping well in testing...better than H4350 and at least as good as RL-23 but with a lot less fouling than any powder I have ever shot in any rifle.  I have settled on the load tested below.  If I have perfectly calm conditions on Friday a.m. I will run a tuner test at 600yds sweeping through 5-6 graduations to find the sweet spot and see how this load responds to various settings. 

(https://i.imgur.com/rwYA7V9.png)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 11, 2019, 06:37:06 AM
Great shooting robin.. I assume the velocity shown on the screen is mv at the 300 yard mark..
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 07:15:06 AM
Great shooting robin.. I assume the velocity shown on the screen is mv at the 300 yard mark..
Yes...it is terminal velocity.  MVavg was 2796fps over 8 shots the day prior in similar conditions.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 11, 2019, 07:43:17 AM
Yes...it is terminal velocity.  MVavg was 2796fps over 8 shots the day prior in similar conditions.

I'm actually jealous, it's been a while since I traveled in that country.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 08:07:48 AM
I'm actually jealous, it's been a while since I traveled in that country.

Beautiful for sure...with a catch... :(   The only decent food I could find in Raton or Trinidad (CO) was in neither... ::)

It was in Cimarron... at the St. James hotel.  It is a 26mi ride west of the Whittington Center and 10 more miles from our hotel but worth the ride.  Other than that it is slim pickin's for this cajun boy ;) .
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 11, 2019, 08:16:58 AM
Beautiful for sure...with a catch... :(   The only decent food I could find in Raton or Trinidad (CO) was in neither... ::)

It was in Cimarron... at the St. James hotel.  It is a 26mi ride west of the Whittington Center and 10 more miles from our hotel but worth the ride.  Other than that it is slim pickin's for this cajun boy ;) .

I've never spent much time on the ground in either place. I have blown through there at high speed numerous times with an 18 wheeler loaded with cows, sheep or horses. I've seen most of this great country west of the Mississippi "through the windshield"
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: Fuj on September 11, 2019, 08:19:29 AM
Yes Sir !!  ;)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 11, 2019, 08:20:38 AM
When I was very young my Dad pastured stocker/feeder cattle on a range unit near Walsenburg CO and we traveled out there a few times to check on them. The bears and natives ate well that summer. 
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 11, 2019, 09:06:22 AM
Dave - Spanish Peaks area of CO is beautiful!

Hey Robin - travel safe and shoot well my friend!

Whittington is the next range on my list to investigate. Wish I was going to be there this weekend but will be at a small 1000 BR match at CRC in Denver.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 09:43:30 AM
Best of luck at the match Jerry.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 11, 2019, 09:47:26 AM
Dave - Spanish Peaks area of CO is beautiful!

Hey Robin - travel safe and shoot well my friend!

Whittington is the next range on my list to investigate. Wish I was going to be there this weekend but will be at a small 1000 BR match at CRC in Denver.

Was afraid you died or something, you were pretty quiet for a couple days! Get your game face on for the match this weekend. No pressure but I'm expecting great things!  :D 
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 11, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
😂

I was off the grid yesterday in a spot with no cell reception.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 11, 2019, 10:24:40 AM
I been wondering about him as well.. focusing on that match I'm sure.. he bound to win that trophy.. no pressure jerry.. you can always go back to the 308 and bang steel if not.. lol.. 😁👍
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 11, 2019, 10:33:32 AM
I thought 308s were just for spray and pray. People really use them for competition?
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 11, 2019, 10:50:18 AM
Robin I see you switched over from 4350 to N160.  Do you feel it is also better than the 4831SC?
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 11:00:27 AM
I can't say as I have not done a head to head comparison between the two in the same barrel.  It is about the same case volume for each powder but  about 1.5-2.0gr less charge weight for 2800fps with N160; I think this gives it a cleaner more efficient burn.  I will know more in about 10 days ;) .  I'm hoping this recent powder switch will allow a very good waterline at 1000yds.  The team I was invited to join has some very good shooters and I feel we could get a top 5 finish so I don't want to be the slacker in the bunch O:) .  I will be shooting a tuner to tweak things if I get stringing in one plane or the other but it would only be a bandaid. 
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 11, 2019, 11:20:40 AM
Wondering if @boltman13 will be making it out to Raton.  Ya got ya ears on??? :)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 11, 2019, 12:18:21 PM
@Robin 👍
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 13, 2019, 06:57:35 PM
Did a little tuner testing at 600yds this morning.  Near calm conditions:

(https://i.imgur.com/DYeeRTq.png)

I am good on my load for 600 for sure.  It should hold out at 1000yds but I can pull it in with the tuner, I hope, if not.  An incidental 3 shot group of 'soft seaters' that were segregated from the record rounds.....perhaps I need to test a little lighter neck tension after the Nats...

(https://i.imgur.com/40sPnTZ.png)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 13, 2019, 07:30:13 PM
dang!!!!

I would say your ready... :)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 13, 2019, 07:38:39 PM
I wish I had about a dozen more of the soft seaters to shoot into that group.  I am loaded and ready to go so no more time to test now....but after Nats the wheels will be turnin'....LOL
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 13, 2019, 07:44:30 PM
how much neck tension do you usually use robin ?
myself I like a light grip on the bullet... I try to keep mine at a thousandth..
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 13, 2019, 07:51:48 PM
Me too Grant....usually 0.005-0.001".  These were 0.001" but with new/unturned cases, not run through the annealer.  The mandrel I was expanding with will give 0.0005" 'neck tension' with the 184 when using fired and annealed cases.  I think spring back was greater because I did not anneal them.  I will test annealing them before loading (even though they are annealed at time of manufacture).  I also usually run a 'flex-hone' In the neck to uniform the carbon on fired cases and do it even on new cases...but I skipped the step thinking it probably was a waste of time.....maybe not as it does lighten up seating forces a little but.

Robin
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 13, 2019, 10:00:32 PM
My Lilja barrel seems to be agreeing with .001 - .0015, I've been accomplishing it with a 21st Century expander mandrel.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 15, 2019, 09:30:08 PM
One of my team mates for the Long Range Team Championship, Tim Vaught, finished day one in the mid range (600yd) championship at the top of the board with 600-45X.  He is on fire for sure.  I can't wait to get up there.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 16, 2019, 08:19:58 AM
Wow! That’s good shooting for sure. We are looking forward to hearing about your experiences down there. Travel safe today and keep us in the loop!😊
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 16, 2019, 09:06:04 AM
Thanks Jerry.  I'll be finishing up clinic in a couple of hours then heading Northwest.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 24, 2019, 01:54:05 PM
Back in town and time for a match report....  Nothing to see here, move along... :(

Well, The Whittington Center lived up to its reputation for sure.  Some hellacious winds to contend with by the second and third matches of the day.  To quote Shiraz Balolia (owner of Grizzly Industrial) who shot next to me on day 2.... " I dropped 14 points and people were telling me great shooting". 

I started the week of shooting a 600yd team match on Wednesday with a couple of guys from F-class guys Texas and a benchrester from St.Louis (Jeff Conover).  I was the designated wind coach and was able to get pretty fair wind calls; Jeff called when I was shooting.  Jeff cleaned both matches and I dropped 3 points to vertical (the gun's fault not Jeff's for sure)  We finished near the back of the pack but had a lot of fun.  It was great coaching Jeff who had great technique and a VERY flat shooting 6 BRA.  My gun had a bit of vertical but most shooters were complaining of such...I figured it was the wind and the terrain.  The next morning for the first 1000yd match I dropped three in very light conditions I expected to shoot clean...and a low X count of 8.  Again, great wind calls but points lost high and low to vertical...grrr.  This only got worse throughout the next two days/6 matches.   To start the second match I was down behind the gun/spotting scope waiting for the call to fire at the end of the 3 minute prep.  I thought I heard gunfire, saw the condition I wanted to send a sighter in and let a shot go.....and then heard my adjacents shooters shout WHOA!  Rhut-rho...that fire was on an adjacent range.  OOPS...my first shot counted as a miss and I lost all sighters for that match.
 The second shot...in effect a sighter...was a 6.  I ended up with a 168 which actually was better than a lot of shooters as the wind was gusting to 35+ at times (see Shiraz's comment)  The blowing dust started to make my Bix'n Andy trigger malfunction midway through the second match on day two and I had to cycle the bolt several times for most shots to get the firing pin to cock...double grrrr.  Blowing brake cleaner through it before the third match did not solve anything.  That evening I put in my backup trigger (Flavio Fare') and it was functioning fine.  I was also getting stiff bolt lifts on several rounds during match 1 of the LR events which seemed to only get worse by match 6.  Concerned that I was getting some carbon/copper buildup I cleaned the dog snot out of the barrel the night before the LR team match.  My vertical, by the 6th match, was over a '10 ring' (which is guaranteed to put you in the back of the field) so I seriously considered finding an alternate for the LR team match as the team had potential to have a decent showing.  I did not feel my gun was shooting up the the level of the other team members and would pull targets so we could have more eyes on the wind at the firing line; one of my teammates, Tim Vaught, won the 600yd championship earlier in the week .  My team mates would not hear of it and said not to worry.  After a discussion with an accomplished shooter from Indiana, Jeff Traylor, we both noticed the vertical on our rifles seemed worse in the cold mornings.  I decided to move my tuner out a tad for the next morning to compensate for colder temps....couldn't get much worse I figured.  Good new is that the tuner change and the bare metal cleaning of the bore worked well....no heavy bolt lifts until later in the second match and the vertical was x-ring high at 1000yds...hooray!  We ended up 5th on the day and only 4 points out of third.  Considering that we beat several long standing teams with world champions on them we were quite pleased and tickled.  I figured that my gun was a new beast and the last two matches on Sunday would go much better.  I did a very light cleaning of my gun that night figuring a 44 shot team event did not do much to the bore.  WRONG... by my 6th sighter shot I was getting heavy bolt lift which got progressively worse.  Darn it!.  my scores reflected the poor shooting of the gun doubled by my poor wind calls and I hemorrhaged points instead of stopping the bleeding :-[ .  Thank God it shot well in the team event at least because I was offered a permanent position. 

So, lessons learned:

Make sure you have a well developed gun/load before dragging you arse out to an event as bit as this.

If you see more experienced shooters covering their rifles in bright sunshine...it is not for rain but for another good reason (dust).

Clean the bore well EVERY night if you are shooting 80+ rounds for most days.

Don't take yourself too serious. :)

BTW...I have figured out that 0.003" neck clearance is not enough on a .284 with the 184gr Bergers so I started turning my brass last night....  The low neck clearance, I suspect, is the root of my problem.

Robin
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 24, 2019, 04:18:56 PM
“BTW...I have figured out that 0.003" neck clearance is not enough on a .284 with the 184gr Bergers so I started turning my brass last night....  The low neck clearance, I suspect, is the root of my problem.”

I mentioned to Grant a few nights ago that 284s just don’t play nice without a 4+ neck clearance. I don’t know why. I am REALLY surprised the BixN Andy had problems with the dust. Could it have been the carbon? Did the Jewels have any problem with the dust or did anyone else’s B N A have cocking problems?

Robin considering the conditions, mechanical challenges, and level of competition I would say you did amazingly well buddy. Good idea for a competitor to not “take himself to seriously “. In your case, your competitors take you very seriously. Congratulations on the permanent team member invite. That is a real feather in your cap.

We all live a little vicariously thru our friends experiences. I really appreciate you taking the time to give us a rundown.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: HufD63 on September 24, 2019, 04:41:58 PM

So, lessons learned:

Make sure you have a well developed gun/load before dragging you arse out to an event as bit as this.

       LOL, This reminds me of my 3rd match ever, the 2018 IBS 1000 yard Nationals. I may have been in over my head.

Clean the bore well EVERY night if you are shooting 80+ rounds for most days.

       I agree and do this religiously.

Don't take yourself too serious. :)

       Maybe the best advice in this thread!

Robin

The scores seldom reflect the effort and if winning were easy everybody would be doing it. Jerry and I were talking about luck the other day and we both agreed luck is something that MAY come your way AFTER you've put in the work to put yourself in the position to receive it.

I personally don't believe there is any luck to be had in these competitions. You did well Robin!
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: gman47564 on September 24, 2019, 04:58:12 PM
congradulations robin... you did well in my book... my question is do you feel the vv powder was causing your fouling and bolt lift problems... I know before you said you thought it burned cleaner than re23....
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 24, 2019, 07:30:17 PM
The Bix trigger was caused by a tremendous amount of blowing sand and fine dust all week.  I had pulled it apart about one month prior and varsol'ed the components/reassembled it.  It was fine until the real sandstorm day :o .  I also did not put a dust cover on it...stupid mistake not to be repeated.  The VV powder is very clean burning but all will produce some carbon.  I think the pressure was due to the typical fine carbon buildup in the neck coupled with a very marginal neck clearance.  Funny you mentioned the 0.004" minimum clearance Jerry as during a conversation with a LR benchrester shooting the match he said nearly the same thing.  Several other shooters also had trigger issues due to the blowing dust and sand.  Thanks for the encouraging words guys as my ego could use them :'( .  I'll have a better prepared gun...and brain...for the next big meet at the Berger Nationals in Phoenix this winter.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: jvw2008 on September 24, 2019, 08:14:09 PM
Shoots Dots on AS told me that little pearl about 5 years ago when I was starting to develop the Shehane build. I knew I was going to turn my necks back then so I went with a standard diameter throat but had him extend it to 0.235”.  He had not chambered a Shehane before and the extended throat was a hard sell - but it works. 😊
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on September 25, 2019, 06:28:05 AM
Ben (ShootsDots) is a great guy and a very knowledgeable resource .  He shot in Houston before moving out to retirement central....Phoenix ;D .  Several people told me they though I needed more clearance but my good fortune with the rifle early on jaded my thinking.  Good call on the .235" freebore…it allows long seating to keep just about any bullet's major diameter ahead of any donut that forms.  I chose .225" and I just clear that area with a 184gr Berger in a new barrel; another 0.010" would have been perfect.  I'm going to run a new charge test with the turned necks on Friday and hope to get it up to form for our 600yd state championship the weekend after.  My father wants me to pull out the 6.5 x55 BJAI.  He may be on to something. ;)
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: boltman13 on October 25, 2019, 12:50:48 PM
Robin, I'm sorry I was unable to meet you at Raton.  We probably saw each other but never talked.  That second day conditions were about the worst I had ever seen.  I was on relay 2 and escaped the worst and fired a 190 first string, which was not bad for me.  Then my squad mate and I were in the pits when someone let go during prep.  Sorry to hear it was you.  When we came out it was really nasty and I fired a 182.  I decided to try firing fast and chase the spotter for the last match and never caught it with a 172.  That wrecked any chance I had of moving up in the standings of Sharpshooters and up to Expert.  I did OK on Sunday but not good enough and finished a distant 3rd SS.  I didn't have any trigger, rifle or load issues so I have no excuse except my lack of talent and conditions.  The 140 gr Burger Hybrids probably suffered more on Friday but we all felt pain.  It looks like I am too far down the wait list for the BSWN's this year so I plan to shoot Nationals at Ben Avery next Oct.  I hop to meet you sometime still.
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: rardoin on October 25, 2019, 02:00:33 PM
Man....you are cruel.... Those scabs finally fell off and the scars were beginning to fade.  Now I'm hemorrhaging again.  Sheesh!

 ;D  ;D  ;D

Yea....I was 'that guy' on the second day of LR.  Kevin led the way on the first day and broke the ice.  My National was a disaster as the gun was on a fine edge with the tune and the nut behind the trigger was abysmal.  The bright point was that my shooting buddy from just down the road, Jade Delcambre, won the F-TR LR Championship.  I did get some advice from Norm Harrold at our State Championship a couple of weeks after Nats ("go up on the neck tension") and the gun is really great right now...."so I've got that going for me...which is good" (…said Bill Murray) ;) .  If you are going to the Berger SWN's in February perhaps we can meet up.

Robin
Title: Re: F-Class National Championships in Raton
Post by: boltman13 on October 30, 2019, 06:25:32 PM
Robin, sorry to open old wounds.  I'm glad your rifle is doing better.  I am waiting to hear where I am on the wait list for the BSWN's but am not optimistic.  If I am way down I won't be going just for the Mid Range.
Jeff