No problem Dave....not taking any of this personally.....we're all trying to gain the best understanding we can. I just put this out as a data point from someone pretty well respected in the industry. I agree, it is not a large data set to base a final conclusion on but it is a data point none the less. He is not arguing that the best SD is the answer but it was a measurement method to evaluate his results for the test he defined. Bryan published a lot of test cases in his book to try to put some measurement to many of the things we do.
Out challenge is to take all of the data and our experience and make some sense of it all......
It is a bunch of marketing stuff because they look cool. The Savage Elite Precision I have coming in 6mm CM has a brake......lol
I finally have a rifle that warrants one....338 Lupua Mag.....even with that, I don't like shooting a lot of rounds. But all of the 6.5 and below don't have a brakes. Also, they are not very neighbor friendly at the range....I was doing some load development the other week and this guy sits down next to me...and he had a lot of options to sit away from others, but decided to be next to me. He had this large caliber rifle with a brake that every time he fired, it would blow my hat off and make cars alarms in the parking lot go off. I had to move since it was so disruptive. He knew I was pissed and didn't appreciate him next to me.
If it weren't for the necks getting hard and brittle I'd go not at all.
I'd be curious to know how many pieces per set, how they were annealed etc.
The results look close enough I bet if the test were run multiple more times the order of placing would change around.
.6 fps is not a large victory for every time nor is it an ass whipping for every fifth cycle.
There's no SD / ES trophy handed out at any match I've ever been too and the position of the muzzle in it's whip is far more important than any velocity.
I had to go back and look at Bryan's method. He allocated 12 pieces of brass to each of the three groups. They were then annealed if appropriate for the group and then resized after each cycle. Two of the 12 rounds were fired prior to shooting the 10 that made up the basis for the measurements. I believe that Bryan was trying to use a measurement that took as much human error out of the experiment....but clearly there is still room for that in this whole process.
Bryan's did observe that the case length increased the most for the always annealed brass, less for the every 5 and even less for the never annealed. I would think this would make sense since the softer brass is easier to move around, which could indicate that this is causing the brass to become thinner is areas we may not want. But other than that, Bryan wrote that "annealling didn't appear to affect anything else including: SD of muzzle velocity, average muzzle velocity or group sizes".
Bryan Litz did some back to back tests that he reported in his book "Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting - Vol II". He used MV and SD to compare the difference between never Annealing, Annealing after every 5 shots and Annealing after every shot. After a 10 shots on the three sets of brass the results were:
Never Anneal: MV=2812 SD=7.4 Every 5th: MV=2807 SD=7.5 Every Time MV=2811 SD=6.9
His premise is that Annealing was providing control of neck tension and variations in neck tension show up in MV/SD.
So there is not a lot of evidence to say that you need to Anneal every time or at all. I do it so that I don't need to keep track of how many time a piece of brass has been fired and prevent neck cracking.
When I clean a barrel I go after both the Carbon and the Copper fouling. I wonder which has the biggest effect on this behavior. I may try just cleaning out the carbon and not go after the copper the next time and then run the same experiment. Neither can be let to get bad so maybe every other cleaning for the copper.
Bob i have to believe if you tune with a hand full of foulers on a clean bore then your first strings are going to shoot the best.. and after you get x amount of rounds down the bore the accuracy starts to deteriorate.. i also believe if you tune with a well fouled bore then from a clean bore start shooting your groups arent going to be as good as they will after you get x amount of rounds down the barrel .. then it will come back in tune for x amount of rounds as the barrel gets closer to the state it was tuned in.. i may be way off base but it makes sense in my pee brain..
Grant, I agree with your thinking. Any idea on how big the window is for when it is shooting good. Seems like it goes off pretty quick from a clean barrel....wonder how many round you get when it is fouled. I will need a window of about 50 rounds during a heavy gun competition. For the light gun, I may get away with starting with a clean barrel.
Welcome to the forum. I hope you find us helpful and share your experiences.
Regarding your questions, I think that the load's that your working with are in the ball park of where you will need to be. The 40.8 may be fine but it will depend on the case capacity of the brass and the seating depth. I don't know starline brass but I have some Hornady brass that likes 40.8 but some Alpha that can't go more that 39.4. So as Grant said, start low and keep an eye on the brass/primers and stop when you see something not right. If you have a Crono, I would expect that you should be in the high 2700 fps range...if you start getting much above that, that would be a warning as well to be watchful.
I have not used CCI 400 primers but have used the BR-4 very successfully. I like the insurance of a bit thicker/harder cap.
Grant's thread and Dave's prior thread on fouling, gives us a lot to consider. I thank you both for starting the discussion.
This feeds into some observations I've had when shooting NBRSA competition. In looking over the results, there was a trend very pronounced that the groups shot early in the match were better than those shot later in the match....for most competitors. There were a few exceptions but this was a pretty consistent trend. I definitely noticed it in my groups. I asked about it among my fellow shooters but none had a good answer. I was chalking it up to a hot barrel...which may be still be part of the reason. But this whole fouling discussion could definitely be a component as well. By the time we're thru, we will have put close to a 100 rounds down the barrel so enough to foul the barrel significantly from starting with one that was clean.
I went to the range yesterday morning to verify a load for an upcoming match. I shot a total of 35 rounds, with the first 10 to warm the barrel. It was interesting to see how the next 10 shot nice and tight and then each of the next 3 5-shot groups started to open up. I didn't have the crono with me but it would have been interesting to see what the MV was doing.
So the question is how clean is good and when is it too clean?
My current thinking is to move a Nightforce 15-55 Competition scope off of the Heavy Benchrest rifle to the new Savage. This is a great scope and should be more than adequate. Then replace it with a March 40-60 High Master. These limited magnification scopes are less $ and I think would be a good fit for the Benchrest competition shooting that this rifle does (600/1000 yards). Starting to search for best pricing but I'm thinking that I'll go that way.
Both the Vortex and the Trijicon looked to be good options and will definitely keep them in mind for the future.
Thanks Ranger for the pointer. I will go check into it. I have fellow shooters with Trijicon but they use them for 3-gun competition and think highly of them.....but a different game entirely.
By far my favorite scope is the March High Master with a max x60 magnification. So from that perspective, it is on par with the GE but that is where the comparison stops. It is one of the clearest scopes I've looked thru...a joy to use. But you pay 2x the price of the GE. The GE is a great value....no doubt.
Bob have you got any of the gen2 pst's with the ebr7c reticle.. its got a tiny little dot in the center thats about as small as the fine crosshair in the scr golden eagle.. i really like the two i have.. also ranger188 has started using a trijicon that he really likes over the ge.. maybe he will chime in on which ones he has..
Thanks Grant. I have seen you and others speak highly of the Gen2 PST but I don't have one nor have I ever looked thru one. So something I will do. Most of what I look thru today are NF with a Golden Eagle and March High Master mixed in for my serious rifles. The AR's use Sightron or Athlon....they are great for that purpose.
Not sure. It really depends on what I plan to use it for. If it joins my 243 Win in shooting steel, then a FFP will probably be selected....so a Vortex or maybe even a March. If I use it to shoot paper, then something with higher max magnification....like a Golden Eagle or NF. I am open to looking at many of the options.
This has pretty much everything I would want if I built one. I have a couple MDT chassis' and I am a Savage fan. The only downside would be a better barrel, but from what I've experienced, I won't be disappointed with the factory one for the first year. Then barrels are easy. I really don't need another rifle but what can I say.......
Well, I finally pulled the trigger and ordered a Savage Elite Precision in 6mm CM. This has been on my list for awhile and not getting out to shoot what I had got the better of me. So it should be here in about two weeks...and then 10 days to clear. I got a pretty good price from the local Sportsman Warehouse. So I now need to decide what Scope to put on in while I wait. I could have built it from scratch but this will cost me less and it all comes assembled.