The attachment has the tested load data that Alliant has developed for the Creedmoor. As is the case with Alliant load data for most metallic cartridges, these loads are the max loads and need to be reduced by 10% for starting charges.
Thank you for the info!
I'm currently not using any Alliant powders. but a copy of this will go in my notebook. It's good to have the information before it's needed.
Thanks for the Info! Got it saved to my phone, now if I can only find some RL16!
Quote from: Cleveland48 on March 23, 2017, 05:56:22 PMThanks for the Info! Got it saved to my phone, now if I can only find some RL16!
Powder Valley has 1's and 8's in stock as of now according to their website. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ (https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/)
Quote from: Cleveland48 on March 23, 2017, 05:56:22 PMThanks for the Info! Got it saved to my phone, now if I can only find some RL16!
Powder Valley and Graf & Sons have it in stock.
Any test data with the Alliant powder available? Curious about the bullets used and group sizes.
Quote from: Hobbsta on March 24, 2017, 04:39:39 PMAny test data with the Alliant powder available? Curious about the bullets used and group sizes.
It's good shtuff. Get it.
There a local shop here that carries a lot of the alliant powders. I just never have time to get there. Hopefully get to stop by pretty soon.
Quote from: Hobbsta on March 24, 2017, 04:39:39 PMAny test data with the Alliant powder available? Curious about the bullets used and group sizes.
I've been using RL16 with 143g ELD-X (everywhere around me is out of the 140g ELD-M bullets) i'm using 42gn getting on average 2730 fps with my chronograph at 10 feet.
My group was about the size of a nickel at 100 yards.
Im using a bergara lrp with a 24in barrel 1:8 twist.
Thanks, all, for the great input!
Yesterday I tested some loads with the ELD 140gr and 120gr. For the 140's, I used Hodgdon Hybrid 100V, and for the 120's I used H BLC-2. Got great results for each. What worked best was 39gr of Hybrid 100V with the 140gr projectiles with an average speed of 2578 fps measured with my chrono, resulting in a .37" group (5 rounds). For the 120gr projectile, the best was with 38.5gr BLC-2, with an average speed of 2675 fps, resulting in a .10" group (3 rounds). I have been testing other projectiles in 120gr and 140gr with the same 2 powders for the past 2 months, but with not as good results, and have tested loads with up to the max powder charge recommendations from Hodgdon. I'm excited having this been the first round of tests with the ELD projectiles!
What I have been finding out is that for all the tests that I have done, my rifle's sweet spot seems to be between 2550 fps and 2700 fps, regardless of projectile or powder, also getting the best ES and SD measurements in that range too. I am shooting a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Burris XTR II 5-25 scope and an AAC muzzle break for QD of my suppressor, which I will be testing with down the road. I'm a little bummed that I can't get better results with a higher charge and velocity, but I'll have to accept it, I guess.
More advice is greatly appreciated!
Anyone tried loads with RL19? A friend gave me about 2lbs of it today. I'd like to give it a run.
JD
txcas; thank you for posting this. From the look of it , Rl16 is a little bit slower than RL 17. I've still got a good bit of 17 so probably won't be trying 16 right away. But, its Great to have the factory tested data.
That load for 23 really surprises me.
CAUTION RL16 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey y'all just want to put out a yellow flag if you are starting to play with RL16... did some initial testing of RL16 and RL 26 today. (Berger 140 VLD-H out of twice fired, sized, turned and annealed Nosler brass (158 gr) , pockets uniformed, Fed 210 M, BTO 2.182, COAL 2.844 (0.025" jump this gun), neck wall 0.0130", 0.285" bushing, loaded neck dia 0.289", loads trickled with calibrated GemPro; this gun Defiance Deviant Tactical w/small pin, 24" Benchmark on a Manners overbedded mini chassis w/Jewel, barrel fully sweetened.)
Primers cratering at 42.6 gr RL16 2908 fps (LabRadar 56F). Progressive development of pressure signs: 42.9 (mean 2934 fps), primers flattening with slight E marks, blown primer at 43.2 (2945 fps), very heavy bolt lift 43.5 (2963 fps).
I can't believe the suggested higher end load data posted for the SMK pill. (My control load shot today was my pet load of 42.0 H4350 (everything else the same) making 2815 fps, sd 8, 0.38 moa 300 yds, which is kinda where it usually is given temperature.)
I dont know if others have tried, just wanted to get this out - PLEASE EVERYONE BE CAREFUL!!!
Interestingly, RL 26 was strikingly benign with absolutely no pressure signs from 46.5 gr. up to a slightly compressed load at 48.1 gr (making stupid 2965 fps).
I remain intrigued by both powders as a possible temperature stable alternate to H4350. We'll see on precision, but < 42.5 gr. RL16 appears promising.
Quote from: graydigger525 on April 17, 2017, 12:37:56 AMCAUTION RL16 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey y'all just want to put out a yellow flag if you are starting to play with RL16... did some initial testing of RL16 and RL 26 today. (Berger 140 VLD-H out of twice fired, sized, turned and annealed Nosler brass (158 gr) , pockets uniformed, Fed 210 M, BTO 2.182, COAL 2.844 (0.025" jump this gun), neck wall 0.0130", 0.285" bushing, loaded neck dia 0.289", loads trickled with calibrated GemPro; this gun Defiance Deviant Tactical w/small pin, 24" Benchmark on a Manners overbedded mini chassis w/Jewel, barrel fully sweetened.)
Primers cratering at 42.6 gr RL16 2908 fps (LabRadar 56F). Progressive development of pressure signs: 42.9 (mean 2934 fps), primers flattening with slight E marks, blown primer at 43.2 (2945 fps), very heavy bolt lift 43.5 (2963 fps).
I can't believe the suggested higher end load data posted for the SMK pill. (My control load shot today was my pet load of 42.0 H4350 (everything else the same) making 2815 fps, sd 8, 0.38 moa 300 yds, which is kinda where it usually is given temperature.)
I dont know if others have tried, just wanted to get this out - PLEASE EVERYONE BE CAREFUL!!!
Interestingly, RL 26 was strikingly benign with absolutely no pressure signs from 46.5 gr. up to a slightly compressed load at 48.1 gr (making stupid 2965 fps).
I remain intrigued by both powders as a possible temperature stable alternate to H4350. We'll see on precision, but < 42.5 gr. RL16 appears promising.
@graydigger525 I called into Berger and they were a lot more conservative on the RL16 numbers. I would post but I did not ask about the VLDs... I believe they were using QuickLoad to give me min and max numbers.
Thank you cwall64. QL is such a useful development tool, and it is always interesting to input experimental data and see how it changes the computations!
How was the accuracy of the rl 26?
Dunno. Haven't got enough reproducible ladder data get to start picking through what might really work.
Abandoning RL 16; even at 42.0 gr, getting flat and slightly cratered primers. Too volatile for me.
With the RL 26 will be interested to see if I have any precision nodes at MVs I never thought my guns could reach. Been borescoping to see if it's rough on the lands ... fun little project, have a parallel one with RL26 with a 230 gr. 300 WM .
Quote from: bowman3899 on April 17, 2017, 08:38:22 PMHow was the accuracy of the rl 26?
Here is my first test with and 143gr ELDX bullets. 3 shots 100 yards.
It is the load I will be working around, no pressure signs.
Quote from: bowfishn on April 19, 2017, 11:05:41 AMHere is my first test with and 143gr ELDX bullets. 3 shots 100 yards.
It is the load I will be working around, no pressure signs.
How many grains of the RL-26 ?
Quote from: smokinjoe on April 20, 2017, 07:14:49 AMHow many grains of the RL-26 ?
48 gr. RL26, 2.890" COAL , Nosler Brass 52.70 gr H2O, BR2 Primers. 143gr ELDX bullets.
I just loaded up a 20 at 48 gr. COAL of 2.895 with my new Forster Bench Rest Seater Die, will test them and also will load 48.1, 48.2, 48.3, 48.4 at same COAL 15 each so I can check out 5 shot groups at various Coal. Will bring Hand Press and Forster seating die with me to try different settings.
Also I am using my 1010 powder scale it is much more accurate than my digital scale I used before. The digital has to average out charge and calculate if it goes up or down 4/100 of a grain, so it can be off as much as 8/100 of a grain, that equals as much as 6 fps ES. My 1010 is set up so I can see the movement of 1 kernel of powder which should reduce ES a bit, as well as I have turned the necks so all brass has same neck tension. ( I could not anneal because I had already Primed cases before I got parts to set up annealer)
Was at the range, picked up some Hornady Factory Brass from Factory Ammo. It had signs of high pressure brass, flowing into ejector hole creating quite a raised round mark on base of brass. Funny that Factory ammo has been worked up using pressure equipment but has pressure signs I would say is way over pressure. No wonder they had problems with primer pockets.
I shot some factory superformance that was to hot.
New Lot of RL26 was 12fps slower with the 48 gr. on the 143 ELD-X bullets, have adjusted QL for the difference, will take 48.2 gr to equal same vel I was getting with the 48 with old lot. I did go down and bought the last 2 lbs of the same lot so I now have 5 lbs of the lot.
I am going to test out the Nosler 142 ABLR bullets with the RL26 next.
HI, First post here, but on other boards as well.
Should call this a Too many coffees before the range report, but shot 9 loads of RL16 and 139 grain Scenars to obtain data.
So here it is, and if I can get a pic posted, I'll include that.
My gun will leave very minor cratering on Nosler 140 gr. factory match.
MPA 6.5BA 6.5 Creedmoor
Nosler brass, new, factory neck was .288 and brass was not resized prior to firing.
Lapua 139 grain Scenars
F210M primer
RL16 powder
2.777 COAL, ~.017 off of lands
Distance 100 Yards
LABRADAR AVG Fired case
Load Velocity @Muzzle Group Length Base Diam. Neck Diam. Comments
41.0 2776 AVG, no sd 1.175/ 0.572 1.907 0.471 0.295 TOO MUCH COFFEE! threw 2, called needs load area retested. Length, base and neck diameters are for 5 round avg.
41.3 2800 AVG/ 5.8 SD 0.484 Pulled 1, called
41.6 2818 ACG/ 8.9 SD 0.805/0.387 Pulled 1, called
41.9 2837 AVG/ 12.4 SD 0.733
42.2 2861 AVG/ 6.6 SD 0.672 1.908 0.4715 0.4715 Couple of primers showed start of cratering.
42.5 2871 AVG/ 6.4 SD 0.722/0.436 Pulled 1, called
42.8 4893 AVG/ 5.7 SD 1.241/0.364 Pulled 2, called both
43.1 2912 AVG/ 6.8 SD 0.812H/0.175V Spread right to left, but 0.175 verticle
43.3 2932 AVG/ 11.0 SD 0.492 1.909 0.472 0.2955 All primers should and measured 0.001-0.0015 primer cratering.
All loads had no marks on the case head/rims and all were unchambered with no noticeable difference in lift pressure and all rechambered with no effort.
Think I need to retest 41.0 and 43.1 area again.
http://s149.photobucket.com/user/pjogrinc/media/65CM-RL16-139-Scenars-web_zpsff5a3aa3.jpg.html
Quote from: pjogrinc on May 02, 2017, 02:40:49 AMHI, First post here, but on other boards as well.
Should call this a Too many coffees before the range report, but shot 9 loads of RL16 and 139 grain Scenars to obtain data.
So here it is, and if I can get a pic posted, I'll include that.
My gun will leave very minor cratering on Nosler 140 gr. factory match.
MPA 6.5BA 6.5 Creedmoor
Nosler brass, new, factory neck was .288 and brass was not resized prior to firing.
Lapua 139 grain Scenars
F210M primer
RL16 powder
2.777 COAL, ~.017 off of lands
Distance 100 Yards
LABRADAR AVG Fired case
Load Velocity @Muzzle Group Length Base Diam. Neck Diam. Comments
41.0 2776 AVG, no sd 1.175/ 0.572 1.907 0.471 0.295 TOO MUCH COFFEE! threw 2, called needs load area retested. Length, base and neck diameters are for 5 round avg.
41.3 2800 AVG/ 5.8 SD 0.484 Pulled 1, called
41.6 2818 ACG/ 8.9 SD 0.805/0.387 Pulled 1, called
41.9 2837 AVG/ 12.4 SD 0.733
42.2 2861 AVG/ 6.6 SD 0.672 1.908 0.4715 0.4715 Couple of primers showed start of cratering.
42.5 2871 AVG/ 6.4 SD 0.722/0.436 Pulled 1, called
42.8 4893 AVG/ 5.7 SD 1.241/0.364 Pulled 2, called both
43.1 2912 AVG/ 6.8 SD 0.812H/0.175V Spread right to left, but 0.175 verticle
43.3 2932 AVG/ 11.0 SD 0.492 1.909 0.472 0.2955 All primers should and measured 0.001-0.0015 primer cratering.
All loads had no marks on the case head/rims and all were unchambered with no noticeable difference in lift pressure and all rechambered with no effort.
Think I need to retest 41.0 and 43.1 area again.
http://s149.photobucket.com/user/pjogrinc/media/65CM-RL16-139-Scenars-web_zpsff5a3aa3.jpg.html
(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s55/pjogrinc/65CM-RL16-139-Scenars-web_zpstgotvwzg.jpg) (http://s149.photobucket.com/user/pjogrinc/media/65CM-RL16-139-Scenars-web_zpstgotvwzg.jpg.html)
There, I hope this is the right pic.
Pjogrinc; Welcome to the Creedmoor forum !
Ya, I always enjoy getting good and coffeed up before I go to the range or start reloading too. :-)
Posting pics is easy from Pbuck . go to a pic, click the share tab. Click the Get Links tab .Click the IMG bar then copy that. The IMG bar . Then go to your post and paste the IMG in your post. When you post your reply it will come up as the picture , for all to see in your reply.
Easy pie.
Did a little more testing with RL26 using 143 ELD-X bullets, this time treated withy HBN. It took about .5 gr more powder to equal velocities but I worked it around the test I had done that showed 48 gr to give me 2999 fps.
Using HBN the results were, 48.4 gr Coal of 2.890" 5 shots @ 100 yards .490" ctc including the shot I pulled, av vel 2986 fps ES of 10 fps SD of 4.5 fps
48.5 gr Coal of 2.885" 5 shots @ 100 yards ..376" ctc av vel 2990 fps ES fps of 10 SD of 5 fps
Hello Bowman3899
I apologize for taking so long to reply regarding the precision of RL-26 compared to H4350.(I abandoned investigation of RL-16 due to pressures as previously reported).
Bottom line: for me, RL-26 is extremely promising and provides MVs that I could not dream of with H4350.
Precision (with my rifles) is equivalent to H4350, despite a gain of ~150 fps MV. Calibrated QL solutions support reasonable pressures developed during combustion, and I found only the very slightest evidence of primer flattening at the upper end of my ladders (48.1 gr = 2980 fps). Again, these are just what I got - standard disclaimer for folks to work up their own loads at their own risk.
Boring details:
Loading data:
Brass: 6.5 Creedmoor Nosler (between 3 and 10 firings weighing 157-158 gr, annealed after each firing), lot 4140271. Necks turned to 0.0130 thickness, CL 1.913", neck sized to 0.285". H20 capacity 52.6gr
Primers: Federal Match 210M, lot FG217
Bullets: Berger 140gr VLD-Hunting, pointed, lot 6454
BTO: 2.182" (0.048" jump), COL: 2.8440" [the jump this bullet likes for H4350 and this gun]
Gun: sweetened 24" Benchmark 7 contour 5 groove 1:8 twist with Miller Brake, Deviant Tactical small pin, Manners T6-A over-bedded mini-chassis, Jewell, Mk4 ER/T 8.5-25 on Mk 4 rings, Atlas bipod.
Ladder Details:
3 rounds each load tested over three separate days: ambient temp 53.0-63.5 F
Baro: 29.19-29.51
QL corrected Ba (RL26 lot #081516 Z 120916) = 0.3630
RL26 load (average MV three shots, LabRadar):
46.1 (2856)
46.3 (2875)
46.5 (2875)
46.9 (2928)
47.1 (2943)
47.3 (2961)
47.5 (2963)
47.7 (2975)
47.3 and 47.5 gr shot for group (5 shot groups x 2) on 5/20 and 5/21/17.
47.3 gr: MV 2961, SD 12
47.5 gr: MV 2977, SD 11
47.3 gr. presented as compiled overlay from two days of shooting. POA was bottom of diamond. Range 200 yds. Wind fishtailing, but predominantly right full value 3-6 mph. Shot prone off a mat on asphalt, Atlas bipod, Weibad rear bag.
I think the vertical stringing is partially due to groups shot on two consecutive days. Could also be some mirage lift/displacement (was strong this weekend) affecting POA, or simply me feeling a bit beat up after working up a new 230gr 300 WM load for six hours on that asphalt this weekend. The horizontal stringing is consistent with wind. The 47.5 gr. demonstrated a bit more vertical spread.
Sooooo.... I'm digging the potential of RL-26. Looking forward to getting long range dope, testing temperature stability, and playing with some Berger 140 gr. Elite Hunters on this platform.
Quote from: graydigger525 on May 22, 2017, 05:22:31 PMHello Bowman3899
I apologize for taking so long to reply regarding the precision of RL-26 compared to H4350.(I abandoned investigation of RL-16 due to pressures as previously reported).
Bottom line: for me, RL-26 is extremely promising and provides MVs that I could not dream of with H4350.
Precision (with my rifles) is equivalent to H4350, despite a gain of ~150 fps MV. Calibrated QL solutions support reasonable pressures developed during combustion, and I found only the very slightest evidence of primer flattening at the upper end of my ladders (48.1 gr = 2980 fps). Again, these are just what I got - standard disclaimer for folks to work up their own loads at their own risk.
Boring details:
Loading data:
Brass: 6.5 Creedmoor Nosler (between 3 and 10 firings weighing 157-158 gr, annealed after each firing), lot 4140271. Necks turned to 0.0130 thickness, CL 1.913", neck sized to 0.285". H20 capacity 52.6gr
Primers: Federal Match 210M, lot FG217
Bullets: Berger 140gr VLD-Hunting, pointed, lot 6454
BTO: 2.182" (0.048" jump), COL: 2.8440" [the jump this bullet likes for H4350 and this gun]
Gun: sweetened 24" Benchmark 7 contour 5 groove 1:8 twist with Miller Brake, Deviant Tactical small pin, Manners T6-A over-bedded mini-chassis, Jewell, Mk4 ER/T 8.5-25 on Mk 4 rings, Atlas bipod.
Ladder Details:
3 rounds each load tested over three separate days: ambient temp 53.0-63.5 F
Baro: 29.19-29.51
QL corrected Ba (RL26 lot #081516 Z 120916) = 0.3630
RL26 load (average MV three shots, LabRadar):
46.1 (2856)
46.3 (2875)
46.5 (2875)
46.9 (2928)
47.1 (2943)
47.3 (2961)
47.5 (2963)
47.7 (2975)
47.3 and 47.5 gr shot for group (5 shot groups x 2) on 5/20 and 5/21/17.
47.3 gr: MV 2961, SD 12
47.5 gr: MV 2977, SD 11
47.3 gr. presented as compiled overlay from two days of shooting. POA was bottom of diamond. Range 200 yds. Wind fishtailing, but predominantly right full value 3-6 mph. Shot prone off a mat on asphalt, Atlas bipod, Weibad rear bag.
I think the vertical stringing is partially due to groups shot on two consecutive days. Could also be some mirage lift/displacement (was strong this weekend) affecting POA, or simply me feeling a bit beat up after working up a new 230gr 300 WM load for six hours on that asphalt this weekend. The horizontal stringing is consistent with wind. The 47.5 gr. demonstrated a bit more vertical spread.
Sooooo.... I'm digging the potential of RL-26. Looking forward to getting long range dope, testing temperature stability, and playing with some Berger 140 gr. Elite Hunters on this platform.
Nice to see your getting results with RL26 and you are getting good velocities as well and from a 24" tube.
It would appear you will be able to stretch it out to a mile with that set up.
Keep us up to speed on your results.
I have one other bullet I want to try, I ordered 100 of the JLK 130 vlds , they will have to shoot 3050 to 3100 fps with low ES and SD with tight groups or it looks like I will shoot the 143 ELD-Xs
I also have started coating with HBN, so far I am liking it, will see if it really makes for longer spells between cleaning. I tried to stretch it to 100 rounds before I started using HBN but started getting erratic high velocities and a couple extractor marks on my brass, but I was testing at 48.5 gr. @ 3029 fps. I had gone up to 49 gr of RL26 with the 143 with no pressure signs before the barrel was fouled, but according to my velocities 3054 fps the pressures were over . Because the dirty barrel caused pressure signs and because I was getting better SD and accuracy with 48 gr. I decided to keep it at the 3000 fps mark.
Not to mention using a load that should average 59K PSI. Average, not maximum. :o
In this caliber, I suspect most would not sacrifice precision in favor of MV. But will RL26 potentially deliver both? And what platforms will it be best suited in this caliber?
QL indicates that a powder charge of ~ 46.0 gr. RL26 in my rifles will provide similar MV to 42.0 gr. H4350, at a similar average pressure. Although slower than H4350, QL predicts 100% propellant burn with RL26 in a 24" barrel.
What average pressures are you comfortable with in your chamber? Does RL26 have a future as an alternative to H4350?
I dont' internet much, so this forum is a great opportunity to learn from others.
QL shows quite a bit different for my Rifle with 6.5 Creed 26" barrel using Nosler Brass 52.70 H2O 140 RDF bullets BR2 primers coal 2.850" 43 gr H4350 QL shows 101.4% fill 99.32% burn vel of 2810 fps @ 58,901 psi. (my actual vel was 2839 fps)
Using same bullet, brass, primer and coal 46.5 gr RL26 QL shows 99.8% fill 99.9% powder burn vel of 2822 fps @ 48,362 psi (my actual vel was 2846 fps)
So for me it got the same velocity with 3.5 grains more but less case fill and 10,000 psi less pressure.
It's already way ahead as far as I am concerned.
There's really only one way to push a 140 grain projectile over 2800 without attaining an average pressure that is at least as close to maximum average pressure most cases will handle reliably. Then, throw in the variability caused by carbon ring formations, copper buildup, how long you leave the cartridge in the chamber of a hot barrel before squeezing it off.... I've fired many 140 A-MAX projectile at 2890 FPS using Hybrid 100V in a tight bore Savage 12 LRP. It worked, but it wasn't the best way to do it. My 7mm08 will shoot 162 ELD-M projectiles over 2900 fps without
visible pressure signs, but I know it is over max, even with the extended OAL (2.940" OAL) and proper powder. So, I backed it off to 2875, and my last range trip with 80 degree averages started to show some brass flow, albeit, barely noticeable. I'll work with RL-16 based on
@Danbonzo 's findings with it in the 6.5 Creed. We'll see if it retires me from RL-17 indefinitely.
My basic point is this: You cannot force the laws of physics to bend to your will simply because you don't see them in action. They WILL eventually rear their ugly little immovable heads and bite you square in the ass, or brass at a bare minimum.
Stay safe
Dadajack, looking forward to what you find with the RL16. Seems to be a very small window where pressures and velocities are happy. Would be very interested to see how things go as temps increase this summer. Thanks for your posts.
The only game I play in this caliber is slow fire long distance varmint shooting, so I never run a barrel hot. The priority is a first round hit, so I'll sacrifice precision over MV any day.
My 6.5 Creedmoor shot 143 ELD-X at 3054 fps without visible signs of pressure as well, but according to QL it was over pressure. Signs of pressure do not always show up until it is in the 70K region, QL shows 70538 to get the speed I was getting with 49 gr. of RL26.,
That is why I have settled on 48.5 gr with the 143 ELD-X using HBN coated, it will give me 2990 fps at under 59K , no worries.
Anyone who has worked with the RL26 in these overbore cartridges knows it will gain the speed with out going over pressure.
Berger shows it with their 135 Classic Hunter with 49.7 gr and 2977 fps out of a 24" tube almost 100 fps faster than any other powder they list. (by the way that agrees with QL figures on the same load)
Not defying Physics it is just Physics at work. If it was peak pressure only that determined velocity than we could expect the same velocity with all powders.
Also check out Alliants site you will see RL26 will push 100 gr bullets out of a 243 at over 3200 fps and stay within safe pressures out of a 24" tube.
RL26 is also showing to be quite temp stable out of these 6.5s as well check out:
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/reloder-26-a-172482/index17.html
RL16 is good powder just don't expect the same velocities out of your Creedmoor that you get out ofRL26 without going over Pressure. It will get within 50 fps.
RL 26 is looking very promising. . Some of you guys are getting old fashion 264 Winchester velocities and 270 Winchester velocities . From the 6.5 Creedmoor. Thats guite impressive .
Bowfishn; looks like HBN is working very well for you. Thats great ! I love the stuff , but I'm not known for precision. Next time I'm in town I'll look for a big jug of Rl26. Then I'll be able to use my H4350 in my 9.3×64 . that will be good.
Well, finally got a chance to get to the range and try some more RL16 loads.
Here's my target, a continuation of the first.
Now to load 20 more of the 42.4 load and try them at 3, 4, 5, 600 yards!
Quote from: pjogrinc on May 30, 2017, 03:31:01 PMWell, finally got a chance to get to the range and try some more RL16 loads.
Here's my target, a continuation of the first.
Now to load 20 more of the 42.4 load and try them at 3, 4, 5, 600 yards!
42.7 looks more centered in a node. I would load several 3 shot groups at that charge varying seating depths. Perhaps start at 0.010" off lands and test at 0.005" increments further off....to 0.025". Three shot groups are all you need to find the sweet spot so you will only need to burn 15 shots down your tube.
Quote from: pjogrinc on May 30, 2017, 03:31:01 PMWell, finally got a chance to get to the range and try some more RL16 loads.
Here's my target, a continuation of the first.
Now to load 20 more of the 42.4 load and try them at 3, 4, 5, 600 yards!
Why the jump from 41.7 to 42.4?
Quote from: rardoin on May 30, 2017, 04:12:53 PM42.7 looks more centered in a node. I would load several 3 shot groups at that charge varying seating depths. Perhaps start at 0.010" off lands and test at 0.005" increments further off....to 0.025". Three shot groups are all you need to find the sweet spot so you will only need to burn 15 shots down your tube.
Barking it damn hard tho for a 139.
I fear guys are overlooking the extra velocity that RE16 affords them without considering the possible ramifications.
Be smart is all gents.
Dan
(Would echo Dan's concerns regarding pressures and RL-16!)
HBN - very interesting! Thank you bowfishin.
I'm pretty much wrapped up load dev with RL-26, thought I'd post to the group if anyone is interested.
Calibrated QL Ba for this lot of RL-26 is 0.370, near exact correlation with LabRadar MVs between 60-95 deg F. Chamber pressures max 64K psi (42.0 H4350 calculates to 60K). Precision equal or superior to my best H4350 loads (~0.3 moa @300), but making 2975 @85 deg F, sd 9 over 15 shots. Happily, no POI shift with/without TBAC 7". Attaching drop DOPE (mils) obtained this past weekend out to 800 with the TBAC. The external ballistics with pointed 140 Berger VLD-Hs are pretty skookum. 1000 ft-lb energy at 1100 yds. Theoretically goes transonic in the desert at at 1750 yds (?!?!) Weather permitting, I hope to get 1000, 1250, 1450, and 1800 yd DOPE in the next couple of weeks, curious to see if the regression curve holds up.
Quote from: jvw2008 on May 30, 2017, 04:26:19 PMWhy the jump from 41.7 to 42.4?
Already ran loads, post #24, and tried some in-between promising points for comparison.
Quote from: Danbonzo on May 30, 2017, 05:29:14 PMBarking it damn hard tho for a 139.
I fear guys are overlooking the extra velocity that RE16 affords them without considering the possible ramifications.
Be smart is all gents.
Dan
1st My gun shoots about 125 FPS faster than what others are getting, but that's is just my gun. 2 other local guns, one Ruger PRS and a custom build 6.5 CM both get lower velocities than what I get out of my MPA 6.5BA. These where with the 39.7 grain loads of the first target. Brought some extra rounds to let them try a couple and to settle barrel after shooting Nosler Match 6.5 ammo in a match the previous weekend.
43.5 puts me almost at 3,000 FPS, with sub 1 MOA OUT OF MY GUN, BUT I do not have any plans on loading up there in the 6.5-284 velocity range. Case head expansion was + 0.002, neck expansion was + 0.002 and case length growth +0.003 over an unfired new Nosler brass and about the same expansion in the case neck and base, primer crater is 0.001 - 0.002, but much less case length growth, -0.007-8 over a Nosler Custom Match 140 gr factory load. My gun craters most factory Nosler Custom match rounds, nature on my beast, I guess.
Quote from: graydigger525 on May 30, 2017, 07:14:22 PM(Would echo Dan's concerns regarding pressures and RL-16!)
HBN - very interesting! Thank you bowfishin.
I'm pretty much wrapped up load dev with RL-26, thought I'd post to the group if anyone is interested.
Calibrated QL Ba for this lot of RL-26 is 0.370, near exact correlation with LabRadar MVs between 60-95 deg F. Chamber pressures max 64K psi (42.0 H4350 calculates to 60K). Precision equal or superior to my best H4350 loads (~0.3 moa @300), but making 2975 @85 deg F, sd 9 over 15 shots. Happily, no POI shift with/without TBAC 7". Attaching drop DOPE (mils) obtained this past weekend out to 800 with the TBAC. The external ballistics with pointed 140 Berger VLD-Hs are pretty skookum. 1000 ft-lb energy at 1100 yds. Theoretically goes transonic in the desert at at 1750 yds (?!?!) Weather permitting, I hope to get 1000, 1250, 1450, and 1800 yd DOPE in the next couple of weeks, curious to see if the regression curve holds up.
Your one of the few on here that knows what Skookum means ;-)
Quote from: pjogrinc on May 30, 2017, 11:07:49 PM1st My gun shoots about 125 FPS faster than what others are getting, but that's is just my gun. 2 other local guns, one Ruger PRS and a custom build 6.5 CM both get lower velocities than what I get out of my MPA 6.5BA. These where with the 39.7 grain loads of the first target. Brought some extra rounds to let them try a couple and to settle barrel after shooting Nosler Match 6.5 ammo in a match the previous weekend.
43.5 puts me almost at 3,000 FPS, with sub 1 MOA OUT OF MY GUN, BUT I do not have any plans on loading up there in the 6.5-284 velocity range. Case head expansion was + 0.002, neck expansion was + 0.002 and case length growth +0.003 over an unfired new Nosler brass and about the same expansion in the case neck and base, primer crater is 0.001 - 0.002, but much less case length growth, -0.007-8 over a Nosler Custom Match 140 gr factory load. My gun craters most factory Nosler Custom match rounds, nature on my beast, I guess.
How long is your pipe and who's barrel? MPA?
Danbonzo, pjogrinc has it listed as a 24" on another forum.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/6-5-creedmoor-rl16-loads-139-scenar-186426/
QL shows according to the speed it is running at about Max to a bit over on the 42.7 gr at 2901 fps, the fastest load 43.5 gr at almost 3000 fps @ +72,000 psi, it is kinda like I had with RL26 and 3054 fps it takes over 70,000 psi to do it.
Pressure signs don 't show but it is over.
Quote from: bowfishn on May 31, 2017, 12:45:22 PMDanbonzo, pjogrinc has it listed as a 24" on another forum.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/6-5-creedmoor-rl16-loads-139-scenar-186426/
QL shows according to the speed it is running at about Max to a bit over on the 42.7 gr at 2901 fps, the fastest load 43.5 gr at almost 3000 fps @ +72,000 psi, it is kinda like I had with RL26 and 3054 fps it takes over 70,000 psi to do it.
Pressure signs don 't show but it is over.
24"? Must be a really fast pipe as stated.
Trust me I get it. I am making final adjustments on my match load using RE16 so I'm familiar with the speed and pressure signs (or lack of I should say) I settled on a very accurate node @ 2765mv. 40.8gr of RE16 in my 26" gets me very consistent and repeatable .25MOA. So far I've found that same 1/4"moa (minimum) accuracy and repeatable mv in that node testing four different projjys-140ELD-M's, 142SMK's, 140 Berg. Hyb., and a handful of 140RDF's a buddy gave me to try out. They all work really well and I call this the mid node for my barrel. I know for a fact that there is another laser node above it, but it's at 2900ish- for ME that's "Hot Rodding" the cartridge with a 140gr.+ Class bullet. I don't consider 2800mv plus (within reason and proportional barrel length) too hot as others have commented on. Hell I've chronoed factory ammo out of 26" pipes for guys that ran 2835-40 that didn't display even a hint of cratering, yet alone symptomatic brass signs, but again- 26" pipes. As Rob pointed out, it frees up velocity, always a good thing..free velocity, as long as it's not abused. I know for certain from apples to apples testing that RE16 grants that extra mph in the Creed case very freely. So that is why I simply caution anyone to not overlook the speed. There is pressure there, it's just more at the end of the burn with the RE16 magic fairy dust. And I'm not being cynical at all, I love the stuff enough to have made the switch from the gold standard H4...
What I established tho is that the 26" length in my rig and at the 2810-2845 range forfeits the accuracy which I deem necessary for my needs. I still get 5/8 moa all day in that range with my 26" 5R but that's it due to harmonics. So the "safe" high node is in between the accuracy node I seek. 5/8 MOA- respectable yes imo, but not what I'm looking for in a $7k rig (TOO Elite??? Tough shit, I earned it too spend it!) Anyway my "high node" I ran last season was 2810-2815mv from a 24" Brux with absolutely no over pressure indications at all. FYI no pressure signs using Hornady brass, and tight (relative to Hornady) primer pockets for 7-8 reloadings on average before retiring the cases. That load gave me a 1/4 minute rifle for 2000 rds then slipped to 1/2" for the next 500. So at 2500 rounds down the tube, my throat was cashed, as I was giving up 40-50fps mv. So it got a fresh pipe over winter. Like I mentioned before I get the accuracy I demand at 2765, but I'm not willing to push it at 2900 to see that same accuracy from the "high" node in my rig. What I give up in drop between those two nodes (velocities) using a 140ELD-M and a G7 drag model of .310:
@500yds 5.5" and 116fps
@750yds 15.3 and 107fps
@1000yds 32.9"and 99fps
@1200yds 55.4 and 92fps
I could really argue 5.4"@ 500yds using a G7 of .320 with the retained velocity at that distance but it's splitting hairs.
I believe the final speed decision comes down to what the shooter is ultimately good with based on their ability and capable rifle and it's components. It's been said many times, the proof is on the target(s)
Like I already said, just be smart guys. Know the limits and what you are comfortable with. Safe shooting.
Dan
Tried the GM215M primers in my 6.5 Creed using RL26 and HBN coated bullets.
The 130 ELD-M bullets seemed to like the Mag primers, ES dropped into the single digits with good groups at 100.
The 143 ELD-X bullets ES opened up, strange they would shoot several almost ditto on velocity and then one would be 15 - 20 fps up or down. Worked up and down the loads that worked out for the BR2 primers, and tried seating shorter and longer by .010" still the same thing. Groups were between .300" and .470" CTC at 100 yards. Velocities were checked with Magnetospeed Sporter.
My sweet spot with 143 ELD-X was 48 gr of RL26 @ 2990-3000 fps, with HBN coating had to come up .5 gr to match non coated, with mag primers it jumped back up so I reduced .5 gr back to 48 gr to match velocity. Tried from 47 - 48.5 gr at .5 gr jumps always same result with mag primers.
Still too early to make a solid conclusion with my set up but it appears the lighter bullet gets a gain from faster ignition were as the heavier does not need it.
The 130's shoot best at the 3000 fps mark as well and I will be testing the new JLK 130 VLDs with both the BR2s and GM215M primers.
Anyone else try these primers with RL26?
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on May 31, 2017, 01:04:40 AMYour one of the few on here that knows what Skookum means ;-)
Count me as one. I grew up in the Pacific NW right in the midst of several tribal reservations.
Hello bowfishn,
I've done several "back to back" primer comparisons with various loads. I've basically concluded that I really can't make decent predictions on primer performance between different powder/bullet/calibers. Some will yield faster or slower MVs, usually in the 15-25 FPS range depending on caliber. Rather than aiming for specific or max MV, I'll humbly suggest choosing the primer that yields the most consistency (lowest SD) and tightest groups over time. I've learned not to rely on a single day's data, but aggregate notes over multiple shooting days to mitigate Type I errors.
With Mag primers in 6.5 Creed, I have found magnum primers do not improve SD nor precision. (I guess this is why Lapua cases are small rifle primer?) There used to be a really nice blog by German Salazar called "The Rifleman's Journal". Sadly, I think this is no longer public. There was a nice article where they tried to quantify more than the Brisance of standard vs. Mag rifle primers, using night photography. If I remember, the results were not conclusive. Does anyone else remember this article?
I would suggest not ignoring "cheaper" primers - I've found that just because something says "Match" doesn't mean a cheap primer like Wolff can't be skookum (shout out to other PNW's!) for that load!
Quote from: graydigger525 on June 02, 2017, 11:37:16 AMHello bowfishn,
I've done several "back to back" primer comparisons with various loads. I've basically concluded that I really can't make decent predictions on primer performance between different powder/bullet/calibers. Some will yield faster or slower MVs, usually in the 15-25 FPS range depending on caliber. Rather than aiming for specific or max MV, I'll humbly suggest choosing the primer that yields the most consistency (lowest SD) and tightest groups over time. I've learned not to rely on a single day's data, but aggregate notes over multiple shooting days to mitigate Type I errors.
With Mag primers in 6.5 Creed, I have found magnum primers do not improve SD nor precision. (I guess this is why Lapua cases are small rifle primer?) There used to be a really nice blog by German Salazar called "The Rifleman's Journal". Sadly, I think this is no longer public. There was a nice article where they tried to quantify more than the Brisance of standard vs. Mag rifle primers, using night photography. If I remember, the results were not conclusive. Does anyone else remember this article?
I would suggest not ignoring "cheaper" primers - I've found that just because something says "Match" doesn't mean a cheap primer like Wolff can't be skookum (shout out to other PNW's!) for that load!
I do recall that article and I believe there might be a working copy of it posted on Accurateshooter.com. It might be in their "article"archive.
As for primers, the only time I've used Magnum primers in a rifle load was by accident. Never found them to do anything for my loads. I do really like the Wolf primers and am working down my supply of then that I bought a few years ago for $15/thousand. Just to make sure I didn't run out, I bought a case of both Tula Small Rifle primers and some Tula Large Rifle Primers.
They yield the same chrono numbers in same brass, bullet, powder combinations as I got from Federal GMM Primers.
Haven't broken into the Tula cases yet except to extract a tray for test purposes. Once I start using them I may have to ration them until I can either find more or stock up on the Fed GMM's.
FWIW, Today, using the Fed GMM's with Hornady brass, RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's; measuring speed with a Magnetospeed, I actually had several test strings register SD's in the LOW single digits. One string had an SD of 2 with 3 out of 5 charges yielding the SAME speed. It was also shocking that the test load with that super low SD was also the best group downrange (about the size of an M&M) :) :)
This is all great info guy's keep it coming. Thanks
There are a few that have reduced SD with the Use of Mag primers with slow powders, but as German had mentioned you need to try different primers with different powder combos there is not just one that works for all. There are quite a few using Lapua with small rifle primers that have had results with mag primers as well in the past with 308 loads. I tried to get a box of the Federal GM210M but not available around my location. I did pick up one box of Federal 210s to try.
My load of 48.5 gr of RL26 with the HBN coated 143 ELD-X using BR2s at 2990+ fps gives me SDs of 5.5-6 with the last 20 I have checked, and my groups at 100 are more than adequate.(I have not put 5 into a M&M as of yet though) But that does not mean I am settling before exhausting other changes that might give me even better results.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Most of Salazars blogs are not available to the public anymore, to bad as he has a vast amount of knowledge on precision reloading. I really enjoyed his one on the 30-06 and accuracy.
Had some fun time at the range yesterday afternoon. Usually shoot in the morning hours which are cooler and wind is fairly calm (most mornings).. Yesterday afternoon was a nice comfy 70 degrees but had wind running from 7-10 mph.
Was working on a load using Hornady brass, Fed 210 GMM primers, RL-16, and 147 gr ELD-M's.
Since there is no published data for the 147's and RL-16 I started out a little low at 39.7 gr. (RL-16) and increasing 3 gr with each step.
Here are the "numbers":
(5-shot groups)
39.7 2651 fps avg SD 4 ES 12
40.0 2667 SD 5 ES 15
40.3 2682 SD 12 ES 31
40.6 2700 SD 5 ES 10
40.9 2715 SD 1.5 ES 2
The Target: (Starting at top Left)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/004053667850/media/32955287558/medium/1496502415394/enhance)
In "Group 4" it all came together and "Group 5" was about 12 hour later with a little more wind than Group 4. Group 1 was also a fouling group as I didn't really expect much from an under 40 gr load.
No pressure sign at all so I probably could have gone on for several more increments however, why?
At 2700 fps the 147 gr bullet will reach 1300 yards while still traveling Mach 1.2. Not transonic yet so no buffeting and accuracy should be limited only to my ability to read wind. It breaks below supersonic at 1600 yards but requires 6 mils more in elevation to keep it off the ground. (13 Mil at 1300 yards versus 19.2 mils at 1600 yards.
All these groups were shot with the Magneto speed attached and my experience is that when removed from my barrel the groups tighten up noticeably. Wonder if Group #4 will become truly a {One Hole'r :)) Next time out I am definitely going to see what happens when I test the area of 40.6 -40.9 gr of RL-16 in .1 gr increments and I'll shoot the test at 300 yards so I'll have any changes magnified.
Earlier testing with the 147 gr ELD-M's and RL-17 showed faster speeds but also showed some serious pressure concerns when cartridge "heat soaked" in a warm rifle. Not a single hint of pressure or speed change no matter how long the rounds were chambered.
How much faster can I go with the RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's? Probably another 100 fps or so but since I don't need it, I think I'll stick right here. Powder is barely up into the shoulder area and with my seating depth there is no "crunch". 2.852" COAL gives me a jump of .020"
BTW, my barrel is a 24" Benchmark with 1:8 Twist and only 3-Groves. Tends to run a little faster than others.
Hi Deadshot2
Here are some numbers for you run on QL, not sure of your brass so I used my Nosler @ 42.70 H2O, if yours is Hornady the pressures and vel would go down if yours is Lapua it would go up. I would assume that because velocities are close to your Magnetospeed vel. that the nosler brass setting works for you.
Nice load work up by the way. Groups 4 and 5 are similar to my 130 ELD-M with RL26 at 48 gr ES was 8 and SD 3.11 3006 fps
Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet : .264, 147, Hornady ELD-M 26333
Useable Case Capaci: 46.156 grain H2O = 2.997 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.852 inch = 72.44 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-16
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.48% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-04.8 96 39.70 2632 2261 50731 9233 100.0 1.329
-04.3 96 39.90 2644 2281 51517 9254 100.0 1.320
-03.8 97 40.10 2656 2302 52316 9275 100.0 1.311
-03.4 97 40.30 2667 2322 53127 9296 100.0 1.302
-02.9 98 40.50 2679 2343 53950 9316 100.0 1.293 ! Near Maximum !
-02.4 98 40.70 2691 2363 54785 9337 100.0 1.284 ! Near Maximum !
-01.9 99 40.90 2703 2384 55634 9357 100.0 1.276 ! Near Maximum !
-01.4 99 41.10 2714 2405 56495 9377 100.0 1.267 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 100 41.30 2726 2425 57369 9397 100.0 1.259 ! Near Maximum !
-00.5 100 41.50 2738 2446 58257 9417 100.0 1.250 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 101 41.70 2749 2467 59159 9437 100.0 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
+00.5 101 41.90 2761 2488 60075 9456 100.0 1.234 ! Near Maximum !
+01.0 102 42.10 2772 2508 61004 9476 100.0 1.225 ! Near Maximum !
+01.4 102 42.30 2784 2529 61948 9495 100.0 1.217 ! Near Maximum !
+01.9 103 42.50 2795 2550 62907 9514 100.0 1.209 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.4 103 42.70 2807 2571 63881 9533 100.0 1.201 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 101 41.70 2841 2634 71608 9057 100.0 1.155 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 101 41.70 2607 2218 47118 9823 98.8 1.361
Thanks bowfishn for the QL data
It kind of confirms what I decided, that I'd just work around the two good groups I have rather than pushing up on the pressure curve for another 15-20 fps. (that I don't really need for what I am doing).
I also took note of the last statements at the bottom, especially the "adjustment" for different lot burn rates.
If I can work at 2700-2714 fps from a 24" bbl and reach out accurately as far as I care to walk, my brass will appreciate it 8) 8)
Thanks again.
Note: I've been fooling around with different powders just to make sure I have something to work with when any one or more become scarce. In addition to H-4350 I have found great success with IMR-4451, RL-17, and now RL-16. Next on my list will be some Superformance.. Lots of it on the shelf locally and Hornady lists it in their reload data as another powder that will send the 147 gr ELD-M's downrange close to 2700 fps. I find that in my barrel, what they call a 2650 fps load is a 2700 fps load. They show 42.9 gr of the Superformance yielding 2650 fps so I figure that I should be able to hit the sweet spot in my barrel at or slightly above that.
Superformance is "supposed" to be another of the "temperature insensitive" powders so it "might" be worth having a recipe for.
Like I said in another post, "I've got the time and to me it's fun so why not?" If I end up burning up a barrel, Ron and Barry at Benchmark will be happy to make me a new one (for the proper amount of money of course). Because I anticipate replacing more barrels in the future I'm converting my Remingtons to "Remage" as they get new barrels. Already have the tools for my Savage so I just need to add a couple gauges to the toolbox.
Quote from: Deadshot2 on June 03, 2017, 10:34:31 AMHad some fun time at the range yesterday afternoon. Usually shoot in the morning hours which are cooler and wind is fairly calm (most mornings).. Yesterday afternoon was a nice comfy 70 degrees but had wind running from 7-10 mph.
Was working on a load using Hornady brass, Fed 210 GMM primers, RL-16, and 147 gr ELD-M's.
Since there is no published data for the 147's and RL-16 I started out a little low at 39.7 gr. (RL-16) and increasing 3 gr with each step.
Here are the "numbers":
(5-shot groups)
39.7 2651 fps avg SD 4 ES 12
40.0 2667 SD 5 ES 15
40.3 2682 SD 12 ES 31
40.6 2700 SD 5 ES 10
40.9 2715 SD 1.5 ES 2
The Target: (Starting at top Left)
(https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/004053667850/media/32955287558/medium/1496502415394/enhance)
In "Group 4" it all came together and "Group 5" was about 12 hour later with a little more wind than Group 4. Group 1 was also a fouling group as I didn't really expect much from an under 40 gr load.
No pressure sign at all so I probably could have gone on for several more increments however, why?
At 2700 fps the 147 gr bullet will reach 1300 yards while still traveling Mach 1.2. Not transonic yet so no buffeting and accuracy should be limited only to my ability to read wind. It breaks below supersonic at 1600 yards but requires 6 mils more in elevation to keep it off the ground. (13 Mil at 1300 yards versus 19.2 mils at 1600 yards.
All these groups were shot with the Magneto speed attached and my experience is that when removed from my barrel the groups tighten up noticeably. Wonder if Group #4 will become truly a {One Hole'r :)) Next time out I am definitely going to see what happens when I test the area of 40.6 -40.9 gr of RL-16 in .1 gr increments and I'll shoot the test at 300 yards so I'll have any changes magnified.
Earlier testing with the 147 gr ELD-M's and RL-17 showed faster speeds but also showed some serious pressure concerns when cartridge "heat soaked" in a warm rifle. Not a single hint of pressure or speed change no matter how long the rounds were chambered.
How much faster can I go with the RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's? Probably another 100 fps or so but since I don't need it, I think I'll stick right here. Powder is barely up into the shoulder area and with my seating depth there is no "crunch". 2.852" COAL gives me a jump of .020"
BTW, my barrel is a 24" Benchmark with 1:8 Twist and only 3-Groves. Tends to run a little faster than others.
Are these 200 yard groups like you normally shoot?
Quote from: MLN1963 on June 04, 2017, 07:40:26 PMAre these 200 yard groups like you normally shoot?
No, these are 100 yard targets. I was passing through my initial load workup so I could move out, maybe 300 yards Tuesday. It also has a lot to do with how much standing water and mud there is between 100 and 300 yards. ;) ;)
Quote from: Deadshot2 on June 04, 2017, 10:09:10 PMNo, these are 100 yard targets. I was passing through my initial load workup so I could move out, maybe 300 yards Tuesday. It also has a lot to do with how much standing water and mud there is between 100 and 300 yards. ;) ;)
I see you're from Louisiana also ;D . Then again, you did not mention having to carry a sidearm to fend off the mosquitos ;) . Third F-class match this year cancelled due to water in the pits :( .
Quote from: rardoin on June 05, 2017, 01:10:53 PMI see you're from Louisiana also ;D . Then again, you did not mention having to carry a sidearm to fend off the mosquitos ;) . Third F-class match this year cancelled due to water in the pits :( .
Actually, I'm from the "Upper Left Corner" of the US, emphasis on "Left". Not just geographically on the Left but politically as well, at least in Seattle.
I was raised here from around age 4 so I escaped the genetic mutation many of those born here have, "webbed feet". We may not get as much rain as some places do at one time but we get it pretty much all year long. The 300 yard target line at our club range was partially buried in a mudslide triggered by record rains in one month.
I have underground drainage pipe in my back yard that is currently flowing like a small creek. It will do this pretty much 9-10 months out of the year. I have to buy Moss Killer in bulk, applying it several times a year. Of course then I have to add lime regularly to even the ph after the moss killer "sours" the soil. When I add the lime my yard looks like a flour mill exploded. 8)
Only good news in this is that it rarely goes below zero and if it does it's only overnight on a day or two. Summer might go into the 90's for a week or so total. The rest of the time it's great shooting weather :) :)
As for carrying firearms up here, our State Constitution clarified the issue from the beginning, that it's an individual right. Some up here even Open Carry just to p!$$ off the Liberals. Perfectly legal and Concealed permits are "Shall Issue".
Yup, warshington , on the peninsula it rains pretty good. Used to be a good place if a guy was a timber cutter or logger. . Now a days tho its just kindof a wet California. Except, fewer gun restrictions at this time. Best thing about Washington is Bellingham. Ya can get on a ship there that has 8 stars of gold on a field of blue and go home . or Sea Tac and get on a plane with an Eskimo on the tail and get home faster. ;-)
Well I tested out the 130 JLK bullets with RL26 and my barrel doesn't like them. Had a node at 48.5 - 49.4 grains of RL26 that looked promising, SD went down to 4 fps at 49 gr. with 10 fps SD at each end of the node. The groups were not great .750" to 1" 5 shots at 100, the 49 gr being the smallest group, POI was the same from 48.5 - 49.4 gr. I was .020" off lands so I loaded 5 each at 49 and 48.8 gr RL26 at .010" and .030" and tried them to see if they would tighten up, would get 3 to 4 out of the group almost through same hole and then 1 or 2 scattered. 48.2 liked it closer and 49 liked it farther away. I will do one more test .040" from lands and Jamming the lands, we will see. I also shot my 143 ELD-X bullets just to see if they were still good and 5 shots gave me one ragged hole, so I figure it must be It just doesn't like JLKs, I measured the diameter of the JLKs and the Hornadys, the JLKs were .2639" and the Hornadys are .2642" .
It could be I have an oversize bore and the larger diameter bullet shoots better, I questioned that when using H4350 because my loads were much slower than most everyone else that used H4350.
Not slamming JLK bullets they are very consistent in weight and length, but they do not work for what I want.
I am new to this forum and enjoy the level of the conversation I've seen regarding RL16. I have been using RL17 for the past few months and recently rechecked my MV out of a Bartlein 28" Heavy Varmint barrel using Lapua brass with CCI450 small primer, Sierra Match King 142gr. With 41.1 grains I was getting an average of 2850 fps. Looking at the loads tested above, it looks like scary territory for me. I might start with a trial round below what I am currently using in RL17 and post the results. A recent MV check with RL17 at about 90 degrees boosted my speed to close to 2900 with some going past. No signs of pressure, but I really don't need the velocity along with the potential wear and tear on the barrel.
Quote from: yukonmike on June 09, 2017, 09:39:07 AMI am new to this forum and enjoy the level of the conversation I've seen regarding RL16. I have been using RL17 for the past few months and recently rechecked my MV out of a Bartlein 28" Heavy Varmint barrel using Lapua brass with CCI450 small primer, Sierra Match King 142gr. With 41.1 grains I was getting an average of 2850 fps. Looking at the loads tested above, it looks like scary territory for me. I might start with a trial round below what I am currently using in RL17 and post the results. A recent MV check with RL17 at about 90 degrees boosted my speed to close to 2900 with some going past. No signs of pressure, but I really don't need the velocity along with the potential wear and tear on the barrel.
Loads listed above are with RL26
Quote from: Deadshot2 on June 05, 2017, 01:22:41 PMActually, I'm from the "Upper Left Corner" of the US, emphasis on "Left". Not just geographically on the Left but politically as well, at least in Seattle.
I was raised here from around age 4 so I escaped the genetic mutation many of those born here have, "webbed feet". We may not get as much rain as some places do at one time but we get it pretty much all year long. The 300 yard target line at our club range was partially buried in a mudslide triggered by record rains in one month.
I have underground drainage pipe in my back yard that is currently flowing like a small creek. It will do this pretty much 9-10 months out of the year. I have to buy Moss Killer in bulk, applying it several times a year. Of course then I have to add lime regularly to even the ph after the moss killer "sours" the soil. When I add the lime my yard looks like a flour mill exploded. 8)
Only good news in this is that it rarely goes below zero and if it does it's only overnight on a day or two. Summer might go into the 90's for a week or so total. The rest of the time it's great shooting weather :) :)
As for carrying firearms up here, our State Constitution clarified the issue from the beginning, that it's an individual right. Some up here even Open Carry just to p!$$ off the Liberals. Perfectly legal and Concealed permits are "Shall Issue".
Left coast here also. In my shooting bag is plastic dividers I put my targets in to shoot in the rain. Rain keeps the crowds down at the range. Barrels rarely overheat. Everything is green and the air is clean. The rest of ya have to be jealous.
Got H4350 from reloader unlimited yesterday. It lasted about 20 mins and was sold out
I just loaded up 10 rounds of RL26 to do a ladder test on tomorrow with the 147gr ELD. Thanks for all the information in this thread. H4350 gives me 2800 at 42.4 gr out of my 24" barrel with suppressor. Looking forward to seeing how this powder measures up.
I just worked up a load for my new Savage Ashbury using IMR 4451 for the first time since I couldn't score any H4350. I was very impressed with the low SDs/ ESs for the various loads I tested. Speeds were from mid 25s to 2689 for the test loads and groups were excellent for most loads...5 shot groups. On top of that IMR 4451 has some copper fouling reducer in it and is temp insensitive. My gun doctor says he is using RL 16 for competition but I haven't been able to find any yet.
Quote from: Luv2Jeep on June 11, 2017, 06:09:40 PMI just worked up a load for my new Savage Ashbury using IMR 4451 for the first time since I couldn't score any H4350. I was very impressed with the low SDs/ ESs for the various loads I tested. Speeds were from mid 25s to 2689 for the test loads and groups were excellent for most loads...5 shot groups. On top of that IMR 4451 has some copper fouling reducer in it and is temp insensitive. My gun doctor says he is using RL 16 for competition but I haven't been able to find any yet.
Quote from: Luv2Jeep on June 11, 2017, 06:09:40 PMI just worked up a load for my new Savage Ashbury using IMR 4451 for the first time since I couldn't score any H4350. I was very impressed with the low SDs/ ESs for the various loads I tested. Speeds were from mid 25s to 2689 for the test loads and groups were excellent for most loads...5 shot groups. On top of that IMR 4451 has some copper fouling reducer in it and is temp insensitive. My gun doctor says he is using RL 16 for competition but I haven't been able to find any yet.
Quote from: Luv2Jeep on June 11, 2017, 06:09:40 PMI just worked up a load for my new Savage Ashbury using IMR 4451 for the first time since I couldn't score any H4350. I was very impressed with the low SDs/ ESs for the various loads I tested. Speeds were from mid 25s to 2689 for the test loads and groups were excellent for most loads...5 shot groups. On top of that IMR 4451 has some copper fouling reducer in it and is temp insensitive. My gun doctor says he is using RL 16 for competition but I haven't been able to find any yet.
In my quest to find suitable substitutes for H-4350 I have really fallen in love with the IMR-4451. Good speed from my rifle with 140 gr ELD-M's, superb accuracy, and really easy clean-up. Apparently what they say about the copper fouling reducer is true. Only thing I see when I scope my barrel after a few range sessions and cleaning is a little remaining carbon that is usual in the throat area. Some J-B or Flitz scrubs that out real easy.
I do like both RL-16 and RL-17 as well as Superformance.. Shooting mostly 147 gr ELD-M's now so I don't know how the IMR-4451 will fare. Hornady lists RL-17, Norma URP, Hybrid 100V, IMR-4831, Superformance, and Power Pro 4000 MR, as powders that will yield speeds in the upper 2600 fps range (2650 to be specific) but that can easily be faster if one has a "fast tube".
I think that the longer H-4350 remains scarce the greater the chance it might become "just another powder".
Well, finally settled on my RL16 load. 42.4 was TOO HOT when the temps were in the low 90s and rounds left out in sun by accident. Had slight bolt drag on opening, but still is my best group to date.
My load I settled on is 41.0 grains of RL16, Fed 210M, 139 Scenars. Shoots great at 300 and 400 yards, constantly sub 2 inch at 300 and sub 2.5 inches at 400. Now it's time to start playing seriously at 600 yards.
Quote from: graydigger525 on April 17, 2017, 12:37:56 AMCAUTION RL16 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey y'all just want to put out a yellow flag if you are starting to play with RL16... did some initial testing of RL16 and RL 26 today. (Berger 140 VLD-H out of twice fired, sized, turned and annealed Nosler brass (158 gr) , pockets uniformed, Fed 210 M, BTO 2.182, COAL 2.844 (0.025" jump this gun), neck wall 0.0130", 0.285" bushing, loaded neck dia 0.289", loads trickled with calibrated GemPro; this gun Defiance Deviant Tactical w/small pin, 24" Benchmark on a Manners overbedded mini chassis w/Jewel, barrel fully sweetened.)
Primers cratering at 42.6 gr RL16 2908 fps (LabRadar 56F). Progressive development of pressure signs: 42.9 (mean 2934 fps), primers flattening with slight E marks, blown primer at 43.2 (2945 fps), very heavy bolt lift 43.5 (2963 fps).
I can't believe the suggested higher end load data posted for the SMK pill. (My control load shot today was my pet load of 42.0 H4350 (everything else the same) making 2815 fps, sd 8, 0.38 moa 300 yds, which is kinda where it usually is given temperature.)
I dont know if others have tried, just wanted to get this out - PLEASE EVERYONE BE CAREFUL!!!
Interestingly, RL 26 was strikingly benign with absolutely no pressure signs from 46.5 gr. up to a slightly compressed load at 48.1 gr (making stupid 2965 fps).
I remain intrigued by both powders as a possible temperature stable alternate to H4350. We'll see on precision, but < 42.5 gr. RL16 appears promising.
I haven't got away from my h 4350 YET so I can't speak on the powder.
But I can testify that primer cratering with a fed primer is nothing to panic about.
I know for a fact I don't load a got load.
Had a guy see some brass one year and swore my load was to hit.
It's a known fact federal primers have a notoriously soft cup,which when fired will flow.
If I feel confident in my reloads it's never a worry when using fed primer.
USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.
I DO NOT WANT AN ACTION TO BLOW UP AND HURT ANYBODY.
we had that happen one time at cool acres , guy lost eye, ginger and had never competed again that I know of.
These are MY FINDINGS AND MY OPINIONS.
I use bolt lift, and swipe along with primers and alot of experience to show me pressure concerns.
Quote from: swampthang on August 06, 2017, 06:30:36 AMQuote from: swampthang on August 06, 2017, 06:30:36 AMI haven't got away from my h 4350 YET so I can't speak on the powder.
But I can testify that primer cratering with a fed primer is nothing to panic about.
I know for a fact I don't load a got load.
Had a guy see some brass one year and swore my load was to hit.
It's a known fact federal primers have a notoriously soft cup,which when fired will flow.
If I feel confident in my reloads it's never a worry when using fed primer.
USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.
I DO NOT WANT AN ACTION TO BLOW UP AND HURT ANYBODY.
we had that happen one time at cool acres , guy lost eye, ginger and had never competed again that I know of.
These are MY FINDINGS AND MY OPINIONS.
I use bolt lift, and swipe along with primers and alot of experience to show me pressure concerns.
But I can testify that primer cratering with a fed primer is nothing to panic about.
I know for a fact I don't load a got load.
Had a guy see some brass one year and swore my load was to hit.
It's a known fact federal primers have a notoriously soft cup,which when fired will flow.
If I feel confident in my reloads it's never a worry when using fed primer.
USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.
I DO NOT WANT AN ACTION TO BLOW UP AND HURT ANYBODY.
we had that happen one time at cool acres , guy lost eye, ginger and had never competed again that I know of.
These are MY FINDINGS AND MY OPINIONS.
I use bolt lift, and swipe along with primers and alot of experience to show me pressure concerns.
If I feel confident in my reloads it's never a worry when using fed primer.
USE YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT.
I DO NOT WANT AN ACTION TO BLOW UP AND HURT ANYBODY.
we had that happen one time at cool acres , guy lost eye, ginger and had never competed again that I know of.
These are MY FINDINGS AND MY OPINIONS.
I use bolt lift, and swipe along with primers and alot of experience to show me pressure concerns.
[/quote]
I know that everyone is concerned about a catastrophic failure with a rifle when hand loading. One thing to note is that if one uses acceptable load workup practices and pays attention to the most important indicators, at the worst they will end up with a stuck case and/or a bolt that won't open.
Good "Bench Practices", keeping only ONE container open on the bench at a time will keep pistol powders from ending up in rifle cases which is a guaranteed catastrophe.
Selecting the proper powder for a given caliber is another good practice. If the powder manufacturer doesn't list a load for a given powder in a specific caliber, there might be a good reason. Proceed with EXTREME caution.
Remember that just because someone else did it with no issues doesn't mean you won't have problems. Not unless you are using THEIR rifle. They're all different.
I hate using primers as a pressure indicator by themselves. I have loads that are spot on for published speed, don't abuse the cases, yet the primer both "top hats" and craters like mad. Unless I see that happening along with ejector marks and difficult bolt lift I just shoot on.
Today's rifles are made with some pretty stout materials. If your action is made from 4140 or 4150 steel, it's capable of withstanding pressures in the 100,000 psi range. Brass cases start to yield greatly at 70,000 psi. Modern rifles are designed to deal with case failures as long as the overall pressures don't go absolutely over the top as they can with the wrong powder in the case or even in some cases too little powder which can cause detonation.
Biggest thing for those who are new to hand loading is to go slow and ask lots of questions.
Just be wary of any advice telling you to 'for it' that's given by someone who only has one eye. We have one of those at our range that just says "add more powder until you can't lift the bolt then back down a couple tenths". He had a bolt take out his right eye and a piece of his skull. He now shoots Left Handed.
Last comment, I'm a huge fan of loading "Just fast enough" for the shooting I'm doing. If I can make it out to my 1K (or more) target at speeds over Mach 1.2 why should I care if I'm only getting 2750 fps at the muzzle? Better bullets today stay fast farther than in the past.
Thought I'd add a load to the list.
I have a CMMG Mk3 DTR2 in 6.5CM and it has been a long road to find a load that performs well. The trouble with this rifle is that the feed ramps are cut so generously that the entry angle of the round coming off the mag going into the chamber is actually too low with Berger VLD and even their AR hybrid OTM bullets. When I have loaded these types of bullets, I find that upon attempting to chamber a round, the sharp edge of the meplat makes solid contact with the end of the chamber and action ceases right there smashing the meplat and denying the rounds entry into the chamber. After multiple attempts at seating depths it became obvious that it is the slender profile on the nose of these rounds that keeps their angle so low passing the feed ramps.
I eventually tried the Nosler ABLR in 129gr and discovered that due to its slightly larger forward profile, when it rides up the feed ramp, it clears the end of the chamber and inserts fully without any contact and no stoppage.
knowing that I finally found a higher BC long range projo that will function, I began load development.
here is my pet load:
129 ABLR over 43.4gr RL17 with Win WLR magnum primers = 2950fps on the nose, SD7 and 1.47" group average at 200 yards.
My quickload 3.8 does not have RL26 in the database. Does anyone have the RL26 propellant data so that I can manually input it into QL?
Just updated my QL data files 31 May 2017. It has a lot of the new powders including RL16, 26, and the new IMR Endurons.
bowfishn,
What primers are you using? Have you tried magnum primers with RL26? If so, do they seem to work better than standard primers with RL26?
Quote from: gorillamotors on October 14, 2017, 03:51:12 PMbowfishn,
What primers are you using? Have you tried magnum primers with RL26? If so, do they seem to work better than standard primers with RL26?
I have tried them the Fed. GM215M, I had mixed results with them. I was able to drop some powder to get the same speed and with some loads it was a bit better with SD, but for the most part the BR2s worked better for me.
I have heard some have had better results, it just was not the case with my set up. They are worth a try but remember to drop down some and work back up, for me it made about a half a grain difference.
I just ordered some RL26 and I am going to test some bergers with and without HBN.
Berger has a load listed with 135 Classic hunter and RL26 out of a 24" tube 2977 fps with 49.8 gr and a COAL of 2.800"
Anyone who has used RL26 knows it likes even heavier bullets so the 140+ do real well and if you increase COAL it does better as well.
HBN for me dropped velocity requiring another .5 grs of powder to equal velocity. Remember they say (who ever they are) if you start shooting with HBN it bonds to the pores in the barrel and has to wear off to remove, once HBN always HBN, but I have not tested that myself.
Gamaliel Shooting Supply has 8 lb containers in stock of Alliant RL26 right now, I just bought 2 jugs shipped and Hazmat $362 that is only $22.63 a pound.
I have been breaking in my new 23.5" Bartlein 6.5 Creedmoor barrel in with the Peterson SRP brass, CCI 450, RE 16, using some Hornady 140 HPBT and 140 AMax that I have on hand. I started at 40.5 grains and worked up to 42.2. I have 75 rounds down it so far with 5 of thos being factory Prime. The barrel is definately speeding up. Five shots each, TBAC 30 P1 w/ Magneto Speed.
Not really shooting for groups, just trying to get barrel broke in.
All loads are RE16 and CCI 450s.
New Peterson Brass w/.004 neck tension .289 bushing
40.5
140 HPBT
2672 fps
sd 27
40.8
140 HPBT
2710 fps
sd 5
41.0
140 HPBT
2720 fps
sd 9
41.3
140 HPBT
2738
sd 14
41.6
140 HPBT
2757
sd 15
Factory Prime
2863 fps
sd 15
The above loads were for the most part under 1 moa, some 1/2 moa. The factory Prime was above 1 moa. I shot some more with the 140 AMax with similar velocities, but they were 1.5-2 moa.
I got out and shot 35 more rounds yesterday evening with A-max and some 143 ELD-x. I bought a new .291 bushing for a .002" neck tension. Results below.
All Peterson brass, RE16, CCI 450s, .020 jump on all loads. Loads with a * are once fired brass.
140 Amax
41.8
2797
11 sd
143 ELDx*
41.4
2749
11 sd
143 ELDx*
41.6
2756
sd 8
140 Amax .004 neck tension
41.6
2761
9 sd
140 Amax
42.0 some swipe visible on brass head
2817
4 sd
140 Amax
42.2 some swipe on brass head, 1 showing slight ejector mark
2847
4 sd
140 Amax*
41.6
2813 52 fps increase over the above 41.6 load that used new brass with .004 neck tension. Either the barrel is speeding up, or the neck tension, not sure which.
7 sd
The ELDx loads were both .6" to .7", but there was no wind and the orange dot was a blur due to heavy mirage. There was little to no verticle dispersion to either group.
The most accurate Amax loads were the fastest ones and they both looked like separate 2 and 3 shot groups about 3/4" apart.
The low case capacity and RE 16 is giving me more velocity than what I expected with less than 42 grains of powder.
I am going to load some more ELDx with 41.8 and see how they shoot. I might deer hunt with the Bartlien rather than the 20" factory barrel.
Quote from: pjogrinc on May 02, 2017, 02:40:49 AM......... snip............
41.0 2776 AVG, no sd 1.175/ 0.572 1.907 0.471 0.295 TOO MUCH COFFEE! threw 2, called needs load area retested. Length, base and neck diameters are for 5 round avg.
41.3 2800 AVG/ 5.8 SD 0.484 Pulled 1, called
41.6 2818 ACG/ 8.9 SD 0.805/0.387 Pulled 1, called
41.9 2837 AVG/ 12.4 SD 0.733
42.2 2861 AVG/ 6.6 SD 0.672 1.908 0.4715 0.4715 Couple of primers showed start of cratering.
42.5 2871 AVG/ 6.4 SD 0.722/0.436 Pulled 1, called
42.8 4893 AVG/ 5.7 SD 1.241/0.364 Pulled 2, called both
43.1 2912 AVG/ 6.8 SD 0.812H/0.175V Spread right to left, but 0.175 verticle
43.3 2932 AVG/ 11.0 SD 0.492 1.909 0.472 0.2955 All primers should and measured 0.001-0.0015 primer cratering......... snip..............
Are you really rejecting 15% of your test shots because you "pulled" them? How can that be?
I think I've tested, measured, and catalogued around 2600 rounds so far this year. I rejected ONE round because of a brain fart when I pulled the trigger way before I had perfected my aim point.
I like to say that unless you have a slam fire when you close the bolt, you should count every round. Yes, I violated my own rule once this year, but you get the point. Said another way, "Do as I say, not as I do".
Anyhow, there are no mulligans in matches, so rejecting a lot of of "flyers" is masking some sort of problem which needs to be corrected. It could be shooter technique, it might be a fault of the trigger, defective, scope, or just less than perfect reloading technique. In any case "flyers" are real.
Quote from: Mozella on November 04, 2017, 04:23:17 PMIn any case "flyers" are real.
Agreed. However rejecting flyers is perfectly acceptible when evaluating a hand load. If you have 15-16 shots in a tight group and 4-5 outliers, while testing ammo, I would be comfortable calling them flyers. Match officials won't but they are still useful when evaluating ammo. They do send a loud message to the shooter though. It says "you need more practice". :) :)
Quote from: Deadshot2 on December 31, 2017, 10:19:29 AMAgreed. However rejecting flyers is perfectly acceptible when evaluating a hand load. If you have 15-16 shots in a tight group and 4-5 outliers, while testing ammo, I would be comfortable calling them flyers. Match officials won't but they are still useful when evaluating ammo. They do send a loud message to the shooter though. It says "you need more practice". :) :)
They're either a flier because you pulled them out or just as likely your load is still out of tune.
Or , they could be from Too Much Coffee! ;-)
I do that pretty regularly. By the time I get to the range I'm good an coffeed up.
If I botch a shot, I call it. May not work in a match, but at least when evaluating a group at a later date I'm not trying to figure out what caused a group opening bullet hole.
Now, if I felt good about every shot. But the group is a great big mess. Then I know the rifle or bullets don't like something that is going on.
The C in the far right column means compressed load right?
Also do you know what barrel length was used?
I'm real.
To me it's kind of obvious, if the rifle is moving before the shot fires, I'll call it. I don't need to see where the bullet hits.
Caffeine messes with my aim more than my trigger control, that's just a bad day shooting.
As much as I want that 5:00 am pick me up before I head out on the 2.5-3 hour trip to the 1,000 yard range, I resist.
One of these days I'm going to get a motorhome so I can drive the night before and wake up at the range.
Quote from: davezander on April 21, 2018, 06:51:37 PMThe C in the far right column means compressed load right?
Also do you know what barrel length was used?
Yes the C denotes a compressed load.
No, I do not know what barrel length was used .
Quote from: flyer on April 21, 2018, 07:37:52 PMI'm real.
To me it's kind of obvious, if the rifle is moving before the shot fires, I'll call it. I don't need to see where the bullet hits.
Caffeine messes with my aim more than my trigger control, that's just a bad day shooting.
As much as I want that 5:00 am pick me up before I head out on the 2.5-3 hour trip to the 1,000 yard range, I resist.
One of these days I'm going to get a motorhome so I can drive the night before and wake up at the range.
Life without coffee is like what I imagine the Great Appocolips will be.
Shooting a small group is not reason enough for me to skip coffee. Besides, the pounding headache I would get would no doubt make my shooting even worse.
I'm not an addict, I can stop any time (as I drink a caffeinated beverage).
Finally was able to load up some RL16.
Rifle is AIAX-SA 24" 6.5CM
140gr ELD-M
Winchester LRP
1X Fires Hornady Brass (from 2 diff rifles)
FL bushing sized 0.288 neck (but I used carbide expander, so kinda ruins the 0.288 neck tension)
60-70°F
~2800ft Altitude
Don't have DA or Atmospheric Pressure.
A few ejector marks but nothing extreme. Primers a little flattened.
Loaded to 2.800"
41.5gr
Stats - Average 2746.32
Stats - Highest 2764
Stats - Lowest 2736.66
Stats - Ext. Spread 27.34
Stats - Std. Dev 10.93
42.0gr
Stats - Average 2783.86
Stats - Highest 2814.1
Stats - Lowest 2764.66
Stats - Ext. Spread 49.43
Stats - Std. Dev 20.76
42.5gr
Stats - Average 2822.86
Stats - Highest 2851.51
Stats - Lowest 2803.86
Stats - Ext. Spread 47.64
Stats - Std. Dev 23.87
43.0gr
Stats - Average 2863.02
Stats - Highest 2869.15
Stats - Lowest 2855.79
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.36
Stats - Std. Dev 5.69
Was able to get out last Friday and test out the BR2 primers.
4X fired Norma (these were all fireformed and headspace measure consistently @ 1.5365, bumped to 1.5360)
CCI-BR2 primers, Alliant RL16
42.0
Stats - Average 2821.02
Stats - Highest 2841.07
Stats - Lowest 2809.89
Stats - Ext. Spread 31.18
Stats - Std. Dev 13.62
5-shots
42.2
Stats - Average 2835.97
Stats - Highest 2849.18
Stats - Lowest 2828.74
Stats - Ext. Spread 20.44
Stats - Std. Dev 7.73
5-shots
42.4
Stats - Average 2855.72
Stats - Highest 2864.88
Stats - Lowest 2846.76
Stats - Ext. Spread 18.11
Stats - Std. Dev 7.96
4-shots (recorded)
42.6
Stats - Average 2856.83
Stats - Highest 2871.09
Stats - Lowest 2845.85
Stats - Ext. Spread 25.23
Stats - Std. Dev 10.47
5-shots
42.8
Stats - Average 2866.12
Stats - Highest 2871.74
Stats - Lowest 2858.55
Stats - Ext. Spread 13.19
Stats - Std. Dev 6.81
3-shots
ES and SD were much more consistent, i'm sure the BR2's helped. With Norma brass and WLRP it was better than Hornady and WLRP, but Norma and BR2 combination seemed most consistent.
Next batch I'll check out 42.2-42.6gr. Hopefully my AMP annealer will ship soon (hopefully in by June). hope it'll help bring my ES/SD down with more consistent neck tension.
I'm using RL17 with 39.2 gr on a Berger 130 gr Hunter. The brass is Lapua and the primers are CCI Small Rifle. This was the second trip to the range and am starting sorta low and will work up until the HMR 14 starts liking it.
Some folks have commented that RL16 seems to be not unstable, but some type of unexpected behavior at 41 +. Have you noticed this?
Quote from: Sierra49er on May 21, 2018, 02:15:00 PMI'm using RL17 with 39.2 gr on a Berger 130 gr Hunter. The brass is Lapua and the primers are CCI Small Rifle. This was the second trip to the range and am starting sorta low and will work up until the HMR 14 starts liking it.
Some folks have commented that RL16 seems to be not unstable, but some type of unexpected behavior at 41 +. Have you noticed this?
'stable' or 'unstsable'
If you're referring to the previous poster about RL16 and he had pressure sign/instability issues...i haven't found any issues.
started @ 41.5-43.0 grains in 0.5 grain increments, and only a few cases had ejector marks, no cratering with WLRP. But somewhat flattened primers, nothing to extreme.
with the Norma brass and BR2 primers, i started to get very slight cratering @ 42.8gr. Some ejector marks, primers do not looked overly flattened. possibly lot to lot variance.
Has anyone tried RL19? I have a couple of pounds that were given to me, and I noticed near the bottom of the Alliant loads there was one for 140gn Speers. I'm using Berger 140 VLD target bullets and thought I'd give the RL19 a run.
JD
Quote from: DDRH65CM on May 21, 2018, 04:34:58 PM'stable' or 'unstsable'
If you're referring to the previous poster about RL16 and he had pressure sign/instability issues...i haven't found any issues.
started @ 41.5-43.0 grains in 0.5 grain increments, and only a few cases had ejector marks, no cratering with WLRP. But somewhat flattened primers, nothing to extreme.
with the Norma brass and BR2 primers, i started to get very slight cratering @ 42.8gr. Some ejector marks, primers do not looked overly flattened. possibly lot to lot variance.
You keep tossing that "few ejector marks, nothing extreme" in there. I'm sure you're an experienced reloader and I'm not trying to scold you so I'll just throw this out there.
I've always operated under the "if you're seeing pressure signs, you're already over pressure" rule.
I've ran some hot loads myself but if you're looking for a good stable centered in a wide node load a load that's leaving ejector marks is probably not it and is probably being more than a little rough on the brass.
My 2 cents worth!
Quote from: 6.5savageguy on July 21, 2018, 02:00:45 PMYou keep tossing that "few ejector marks, nothing extreme" in there. I'm sure you're an experienced reloader and I'm not trying to scold you so I'll just throw this out there.
I've always operated under the "if you're seeing pressure signs, you're already over pressure" rule.
I've ran some hot loads myself but if you're looking for a good stable centered in a wide node load a load that's leaving ejector marks is probably not it and is probably being more than a little rough on the brass.
My 2 cents worth!
Not experienced but I agree with you. The 1st batch was with Hornady Brass, and who knows how inconsistent case volume is and the ejector marks were at 42.8gr and 43gr.
When I switched to the Norma Brass, i actually got one casing that had ejector mark @ 42.8gr.
Apologize haven't updated this, but was finally able to go out this recent Sunday to get more data.
This time I used virgin Norma and came down to 42.6gr with NO ejector marks on any brass. Warm day, ~85-90F. Warmer than my last two sessions (roughly 70F).
So like you mentioned, I did lower powder charge due to the pressure signs.
Groups attached @ 100 yards 10-shot string and had the jitters that day. Then was able to get steady the two middle groups. ES/SD we're worse...could be any variable. Virgin brass? Powder left in hopper through the last few hot weeks in the garage? I dunno.
Any more feedback would be great!
Nice groups!
Again I wasn't scolding you just giving my opinion on the load. I've run them as hot as anyone here and get the same advice from others as well. For me it's an easy trap to fall into, a little more powder for a little more speed. In the end I usually end up backing up to where it shot best.
Quote from: DDRH65CM link=msg=103704
Any more feedback would be great!
/quote]
I haven't read your whole thread so if I suggest something you're already doing that's why.
If you're really serious about getting in the middle of the widest most stable node you need to quit worrying about es & sd and put the chronograph away. The target will tell the story.
First thing I would do is a thorough seating depth test on that 42.6 load to find the center of the seating depth node. If you start at .005 off and move away .003 at a time out to .030 off you should be able to see where 3 or 4 groups tighten up and be able to identify the center of the seating depth node.
Then I would load up 3 rounds each at that seating depth .1 grains apart from 42.0 to 42.7 and find the center of the powder node.
This can all be done at 100 yards but the farther distance you shoot the easier it will be to read the results and the more accurate the load can be tuned. Obviously you need to be able to shoot at that distance to get reliable information. The powder node can be .3 - .5 wide at 100 but will shrink the farther out you go. It's .1 wide at 1000 on my 6 BRA, .1 off either way will go from .4 to .8 MOA
Get a good white target set up at whatever distance you choose, the bigger the better so it doesn't get cluttered up. Even just moving out to 200 yards really makes things easier to read. Then when you get to punching tiny holes at 200 move out to 400 - 600 and tune again then get out the chrono so you can plug your speed into an app for dope and jump out to 1000 and check your tune there.
By the time you get tuned at 600 the es & sd will have themselves sorted out and if they're not super low don't worry about it because it doesn't matter since you have a solid, stable middle of the node load. Your chrono is probably off.
That's how I do it. Anytime I don't do it close to that way I usually have to back up and do it over LOL.
The biggest thing is to get out and shoot the gun. A lot, it will tell you what it likes if you look & listen. The hardest part about tuning a load is getting past trying to make it shoot what some guy on the Internet says his shoots.
It took me thousands of rounds to get where I'm at as far as marksmanship or reloading and I'm far from an expert. Don't be afraid to shoot out a barrel or two honing your skills. They make more every day.
Quote from: lofty on July 21, 2018, 01:21:09 AMHas anyone tried RL19? I have a couple of pounds that were given to me, and I noticed near the bottom of the Alliant loads there was one for 140gn Speers. I'm using Berger 140 VLD target bullets and thought I'd give the RL19 a run.
JD
I did some load work ups with it using 147 ELD and 142 SMK and it performed great. The extra velocity was outstanding and the SD's were low. It does not have the same temperature stability as other powders, and so I have not used it, but I still consider it from time to time just for the extra fps.
For anyone using Copper Bullets or Lead Free. I'm in CA and well this state is turning into a shithole. We're limited to "Lead Free" Bullets for hunting (Must be state approved).
I could not for the life of me get any monolithic copper bullets to group. the only acception is my AR15, 16" mid-length Daniel Defense S2W bbl. Running Remington Hog Hammer 62gr TSX shot well.
I've tried Hornady 6.5CM 120GMX SuperFormance Factory ammo, and although fast (~3000fps), it would group 1.5"-4". Also tried Hornady Full Boar, 120GMX, same bullet, dunno what powder these factory loads run. But it's a bit slower than the Superformance @ roughly ~2900fps. Groups were also 1.5"-4". Both will avg 2" 5 shot groups.
So i went to reloads and tried H4350 (Cuz i have a lot of it) with the Barnes 127 LRX. Velocity @ 42gr is 2725fps avg. Groups were 1"-2", much better than the factory loads.
Finally i decided to try RL16. from 42.0-42.6gr in 0.2gr increments. groups were much better. and consistently <1" @ 100yds. Best load was @ 42.4gr RL16 @ 2820fps avg. I may try some higher nodes.
Reloder 16
42.4gr
127 LRX
WRLP-5rnds, BR2-5rnds
Norma 4XF brass
COAL - 2.730"
BTO - 2.142"
OTL - 0.120" (long jump)
80*F
DA - 4500ft
Stats - Average 2820.39
Stats - Highest 2829.58
Stats - Lowest 2807.64
Stats - Ext. Spread 21.94
Stats - Std. Dev 7.23
Shot ID V0
1 2814
2 2825
3 2829
4 2808
5 2816
6 2826
7 2823
8 2814
9 2830
10 2820
For you guys that like RL16, I have 8# of the premium version with Norma URP for sale in the classified section. This powder came to me directly from Western Powder Co, the US distributor, so it's a fresh as any on any dealers shelf.
I haven't bit the bullet on a 6.5 CM as yet. My shooting partner may beat me to it, so I requested it as sort of a contingency powder after doing some evaluation of what I could find on the net. I could have requested AA 4350 or Ramshot hunter, but I decided on URP from the info I could gather. I have not ruled out other 6.5mms yet. The CZ 550 had a twist of 1 in 8.66". Now they list the 557 in the Swede and the CM. Haven't had any luck contacting them to see if they retained the same twist. My plan is for hunting and informal target shooting with 130 gr bullets as heavy as I'll need, while if I get the urge to make some whitetail sizzlers I think the 100 gr. Partition might be interesting. Norma data is a bit different where cartridges at .243 WIN and bigger get magnum primers for the colder environment. But for whatever reason, some of their warmest data is for URP in the 6.5 x 55mm.
I can't say how long it will stay in the classified section. Obviously, if I happen to add a 6.5 CM, or if my SP does before it sells, it will be removed. At $200 picked up here, that's $25/lb. Shipped it will be $230 to cover shipping and Haz-Mat. ;)
https://wwpowder.com/sb65/
Eric (https://wwpowder.com/sb65/)
Haven't seen many post about IMR 4166 but I'm shooting 120gr eldm with .6" groups and 2900 MV
Quote from: Delta Precision on December 29, 2019, 08:08:25 AMHaven't seen many post about IMR 4166 but I'm shooting 120gr eldm with .6" groups and 2900 MV
Interesting to know, that powder was labeled as a 6.5 Creedmoor powder when it came out. H4350 was tough to come by then and a lot of people went to the other new IMR powder 4451 because it was similar to 4350.
4166 is good with the 120's and lighter in the 6.5 creedmoor.. kinda comparable to varget .i use it in a 243 with a 75 gr. Bullet.. and have used it with a 107 gr tmk in the 6.5 creedmoor.. both shot well and gave good speed in them applications..
Quote from: eas1949 on October 21, 2019, 05:56:27 PMhttps://wwpowder.com/sb65/
Eric (https://wwpowder.com/sb65/)
Gotta get me some of that powder!!
Email Data
Print Data
BULLET WEIGHT
140 GR. SFT A-FRAME
MANUFACTURER
WinchesterPOWDER
StaBALL 6.5BULLET DIAM.
.264"C.O.L.
2.700"
STARTING LOADS
GRS. VEL.(FT/S) PRESS.
38.7 17,011 31,600 PSI
Plan on shooting Stabal 6.5 loads tomorrow in my 7mm-08 improved.
Obviously from it's name it's a ball powder, it's very fine as in leaks out of the powder measure on my auto thrower. Pours well though and settles very nicely allowing more powder to be used.
I'll have some velocity numbers soon.
that's what I hate about ball powder... you end up with it everywhere...
Hello all
Issues with the following setup: Hornady Case, Alliant RL16 and Hornady SST 129gr
The minimum OAL recommended from Alliant's data is 2.825in.
http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=41&cartridge=184 (http://alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=41&cartridge=184)
With that OAL the bullet is not fully seated according to the markings on the neck of the SST bullet.
(https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/media/20211027_234359-1-jpg.14377/full)
(https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/media/20211027_234512-1-jpg.14378/full)
If the markings on the bullet was met then the OAL would be 2.7". At that point there is little movement inside the cartridge for the 44.4gr of powder to move.
Please help with a suggestion.
I wouldnt worry about that crimp line on the bullet.. it doesnt have to be seated that deep.. alliants recommended oal is just that.. a recommended seating depth.. myself i like to know what the oal is to the lands.. or more importantly what the cbto is to the lands.. then back off that .020 and start my load development..
Just a thought, should the oal be measured from the "tip/end" of the bullet? Or should I be measuring the oal from the ogive using a Bullet Comparator set to zero on the calliper?
Thanks
Base to ogive is what most use.. there can be a few thousandths difference from the ogive to the tip of a bullet.. so if you measure bullets from base to tip there can be some difference in length that probably isnt there when measuring from the base to ogive on the bullet.. its good practice to log both measurements though..