The Creedmoor Forum

Creedmoor Technical Info => Gunsmithing => Topic started by: CaptMarine on June 26, 2020, 12:33:13 PM

Title: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 26, 2020, 12:33:13 PM
I read on another forum about a borescope opening up a "can of worms" and I think that is what I have done for myself.  I have a RPR 6.5 Creedmoor with <80 rds down the tube.  Today I dug out my newly acquired borescope just to have a look at what it can tell me.

Now the ouch part. I think an Ouch anyway, not sure.  That's where hopefully you guys/gals will play a role in "do I have a problem or not"!  The attached photos will hopefully explain what I'm looking at "as not so good for me".  Looks to me like the lands are in bad shape in this barrel.  What do you think, should I go ahead and replace this barrel before I continue with load development or should I just go with it as it is?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 26, 2020, 12:34:52 PM
Photos continued
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 26, 2020, 01:07:11 PM
Ouch is correct. If there are only 80 rounds down this then I think the problem started at the factory. You could probably talk Ruger into a replacement and sit and wait til they get done fiddling around only to end up with a second,  possibly second-rate barrel. It’s your dollars but for me I think you will be most rewarded doing load development on a top quality after market barrel. Still - it’s tough to drop $700 into a brand new rifle. Which way to go depends a bit on how quickly you want a .3 MOA rifle. My first RPR didn’t really start to perform until the action met a Bartlein 5 R barrel.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 26, 2020, 02:00:16 PM
All i see in that barrel is carbon and copper in the groves.. the lands look good.. i would take some good carbon remover and copper remover and run a few wet patches through it and let it soak 15 or 20 minutes and take a brush to it several strokes and patch it out and have another look in there..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 26, 2020, 02:39:35 PM
Certainly is ugly looking....worse than any savage I've looked at.  Is it all on the same land?  Appears like it was tore up by the tooling (button). 
Does it shoot?
A good cleaning may make it look better as Grant says but I would be very mistrusting of it forever if I saw that.  One of the reasons that maybe I shouldn't have bought the Teslong.  It certainly tells you why the better shooting barrels shoot good because they look good.  It also tells you when they are clean.
But seeing flaws can really get your mind spinning.

That being said a couple of "ugly" ones I have definitely shoot better than they look.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 26, 2020, 03:50:29 PM
Capt I Hope Grant is correct but carbon and copper is not my take from your pictures. If you had not scrubbed it good before those pics - do so and let us have another peek.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 26, 2020, 03:51:49 PM
I'm not that sure that's all carbon and copper. I would give it a severe down to bare metal cleaning though before I passed judgement on it either way.

This ties nicely into my foul your barrel in thread. Unfortunately that thread went right over everybodies head. It was NOT a barrel cleaning and was NOT a barrel cleaning frequency thread. It was a thread to evaluate where your best accuracy comes back after a cleaning.

I'd like to see some bore cam pics of some of these barrels with hundreds of rounds on them since their last cleaning. If I were trying to shoot a good group and hadn't cleaned in a while these images would be burned in my mind. Imagine putting all the effort into making your best ammo and blasting it into that mess.

@CaptMarine I'm not insinuating you don't take care of your equipment and I think you have more going on there than carbon and copper.  
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 26, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
Grant - I'll do another cleaning, but I can't see cleaning will get rid of the cracks and craters.  These pictures are the start of the lands from what I can tell and 3 are affected.

It is a hard pill to swallow to have to replace a barrel this early in the game so I'm game for any suggestions and will comply.  I'll send the photos to Ruger and see what they have to say about it.  Regardless to me it's just plain ugly.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 26, 2020, 04:03:27 PM
Grant - I'll do another cleaning, but I can't see cleaning will get rid of the cracks and craters.  These pictures are the start of the lands from what I can tell and 3 are affected.

It is a hard pill to swallow to have to replace a barrel this early in the game so I'm game for any suggestions and will comply.  I'll send the photos to Ruger and see what they have to say about it.  Regardless to me it's just plain ugly.

If it is carbon it's built up pretty heavy to have those "cracks & craters" and it's going to take some pretty aggressive cleaning in that area not just running patches through the bore.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: Ranger 188 on June 26, 2020, 04:17:43 PM
Just to make sure, I'd give it a heck of a cleaning and then see what it looked like.
I've never seen a barrel like that. I MEAN SCRUB THE CRAP OUT OF IT.
You've got nothing to lose.
Is that the first couple inches or is that the way it looks half way down the barrel too?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: eas1949 on June 26, 2020, 07:32:05 PM
Run Tubbs final finish bullets through it.
Eric
http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits
(http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finish-bullet-kits)
http://www.davidtubb.com/catalog/view/theme/davidtubb/pdf/product_information/ff_brochure.pdf (http://www.davidtubb.com/catalog/view/theme/davidtubb/pdf/product_information/ff_brochure.pdf)
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 26, 2020, 08:25:16 PM
Eric if the ramp in the lands are gouged as badly as they look, I don’t think even Tubb’s Bullets will make them function correctly. I’m anxious to see the pics after Capt does a good scrub in there.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 26, 2020, 10:08:05 PM
In that first picture it appears the ramp of the lands are smooth and shiny.. that all the ugliness is down in the groves.. but maybe im not seeing things right.. if it were mine i would take some jb bore paste on a wore out brush and brush the crap out of the first 3 or 4 inches of the bore..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 26, 2020, 11:00:53 PM
Grant - I'll do another cleaning, but I can't see cleaning will get rid of the cracks and craters.  These pictures are the start of the lands from what I can tell and 3 are affected.

It is a hard pill to swallow to have to replace a barrel this early in the game so I'm game for any suggestions and will comply.  I'll send the photos to Ruger and see what they have to say about it.  Regardless to me it's just plain ugly.
That part of the ramp is normally smooth & shiny after 80 rounds.
Being the ramp of the lands my guess is now that it was the reamer, chips or a combination. Are you sure all 6 aren't pretty much the same?   Maybe it could be throated a hair deeper to clean it up.  I estimated the fov of my Teslong mirror view at .200, also the lands are only about .004 high, looks like the "gouging" for the most part is .002+.  The std saami freebore is .199.  A estimated guess is that the throat would have to increase by .015 - .050 in order to clean up most of those ramps.

Curious what Ruger has to say.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 26, 2020, 11:16:36 PM
after looking at them pic;s on my lap top i will stand by my first reply.... i think that all cleans up and all is good... what powder are you using captmarine... alliant ?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 07:31:36 AM
after looking at them pic;s on my lap top i will stand by my first reply.... i think that all cleans up and all is good... what powder are you using captmarine... alliant ?

I hope you're right Grant but it looks to me like all the ugly in the lands not the grooves.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 12:50:12 PM
All - I've done another cleaning using the only cleaning solution I've ever used - Hoppe's #9 and Hoppe's Elite.  The only place I see the crude or damage is in the first few inches of the rifling.  The start of the lands are smooth and shinny.  Did notice some gouges in the bore section.  Only one area.  Attached is more pictures after the cleaning.  Disclaimer here: Round in chamber is NOT primed or loaded with powder.

For what it's worth I've only shot two boxes of Hornady factory rds. mostly as foulers and tried some load development with 147 gn ELD Match bullets and RL-16 (wanted something that was readily available).  Rifle has been idle since Dec. 2018.

I'm going to do some more scrubbing today to rule out any possibility of this being just crude, Gman could very well be correct as the rest of the comments and observations.

I really do appreciate everyone taking the time to look and help me out - I'll not take any comments personal and I know all of you just want to help.  My gratitude and thanks to all.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 12:51:09 PM
Another pic
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: Ranger 188 on June 27, 2020, 01:11:13 PM
Don't know if it's a before and after picture or just
farther down the bore.
Your 1st and 3rd picture looks good, the 2nd still has that bad
groove look and the 4th still looks a bit fouled yet.
Looks like machine marks, on the 2nd.
Your 5th or last picture looks fine also.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 01:52:26 PM
your barrel is fine capt... ditch the hoppes and get some pro shot lV  copper solvent or bore tech copper remover and bore tech carbon remover ... 2 different products of the bore tech stuff... it will do alot better job of cleaning your barrels than the hoppes stuff...
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 01:53:19 PM
They are all the same area.  Bullet in chamber for reference of where the crude or craters are in relation to the barrel.  I have cleaned three times as of these (attached pics).  After latest cleaning.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 01:54:06 PM
One more pic after latest cleaning.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 01:58:30 PM
capt i assume your using a teslong bore scope... if you are you can turn the mirror part in or out to focus your pictures better...   i still say that is carbon down in the groves that will come out with some good solvents and alot of brushing just in that area.  
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: sportacus on June 27, 2020, 02:38:10 PM
Capt,
Thank you and the other posters for this education.  Only a hunter and suspect I over clean.  OCD about buck of a lifetime presenting and rifle sh^*s the bed because it needs cleaning.  Will have a Teslong before Independence Day.  Would appreciate recommendations on model to purchase from this crew.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 03:00:20 PM
One more pic after latest cleaning.

These pictures aren't quite as clear as the earlier pics. I'm starting to lean Grant's way though it looks like it's cleaning up.

Keep at it.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 03:01:59 PM
Did you ever say what powder you're burning?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 03:05:29 PM
Rl16 dave.. for what ever reason the alliant powders like to lay down hard carbon.. and it takes some work to get it out if you dont stay on top of it.. a lesson i recently learned...
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 03:49:24 PM
capt i assume your using a teslong bore scope... if you are you can turn the mirror part in or out to focus your pictures better...   i still say that is carbon down in the groves that will come out with some good solvents and alot of brushing just in that area.  

Grant - right on on the teslong - thanks for the tip - the last picture 13_46_32 though somewhat out of focus, to me shows the start of the rifling then the crap or gouges riding on top of the two lands.  maybe wrong though - have been before.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 03:52:35 PM
Rl16 dave.. for what ever reason the alliant powders like to lay down hard carbon.. and it takes some work to get it out if you dont stay on top of it.. a lesson i recently learned...

I agree about the Reloder powders. I just scoped 8 barrels and you could tell which on shot a fair amount of RL 16
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 27, 2020, 07:40:45 PM
I reverse my yesterdays diagnosis..these pictures  show the throat and lead ramps and they look good to me.  Most likely the three rough lands have been there since day one. 
It is possible that the throat starts engraving ok and it passes over the rough stuff  & conforms well for the rest of the trip. Low spots on the lands catch some carbon & copper but don't chew up the bullet.
Clean it some more and go see if it shoots.

Good luck
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 27, 2020, 07:58:56 PM
Capt,
Thank you and the other posters for this education.  Only a hunter and suspect I over clean.  OCD about buck of a lifetime presenting and rifle sh^*s the bed because it needs cleaning.  Will have a Teslong before Independence Day.  Would appreciate recommendations on model to purchase from this crew.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.amazon.com/Teslong-Borescope-Side-View-Semi-Rigid-Smartphone/dp/B07TTQF24F&ved=2ahUKEwjmrKejpKPqAhWbK80KHbJTAI4QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0S5YSquYatDB_eROViAvor

Wayne, hope this link works.  This is the one I bought I use it with a laptop.  It says it works with Android but I didn't get the adaptor with it for my phone which I think is called "micro usb" (can't keep up with the ongoing changes in this tech world).

A word of warning; once you start looking at your bores you may be selling them...lol...scary stuff in some of them!

Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 27, 2020, 09:13:59 PM
Have not changed my mind. The metal looks “better” with the cleaning but I think you have a couple areas of machining that look gouged out.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 27, 2020, 09:36:18 PM
Trying another approach as to what I'm seeing - yea a video 8)

Looks to me like the two narrow ribs are the lands with the wider valley in between.

The attachment is a zip file when unzipped will be a .mp4 video

Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 09:58:06 PM
Good video.. one thing to know is the teslong bore scope magnifies a bunch.. it will make a needle look like a 10 penny nail.. the wide area thats nice and clean is the highest parts of the bore.. that black rough looking stuff is down in the groves.. and its carbon.. hoppe's wont touch it.. i bet a dollar to a doughnut that if you had some jb bore paste and put it on a nylon brush and brushed the crap out of the first 4or 5 inches of the bore that all that will be gone and your barrel will look new again..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 10:31:52 PM
I'm not willing to say it's fine yet but I agree with Grant and think you still have some carbon to remove. Personally I'm hesitant to short stroke and reverse a brush in the lands.

I would take a .22 cal jag and put as big of patch on it as possible to still enter the bore then load it up with JB and short stroke the snot out of it. Like 40 strokes then replace the patch and JB again and give it 40 more then patching out and have another look.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 10:37:00 PM
https://youtu.be/JPZoPuwEeg4
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 10:40:43 PM
Dave my smith suggested i use a nylon brush that had been used before on the 22 creedmoor.. and thats what i did.. took about 130 or 40 short strokes to get that hard carbon out but it came out with no ill effects to the bore that i could see.. a tight fitting patch may work even better.. just havnt tried that yet..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 27, 2020, 10:45:40 PM
Good video dave.. thanks for posting that
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 27, 2020, 11:06:58 PM
A nylon brush should be fine especially if it was one caliber smaller.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 27, 2020, 11:52:10 PM
Either I'm totally off but when I was a kid plowing fields for my grandpa the first pass left the "high land"......thus I have always called the high part of the rifling the lands and the grooves to me were the deepest part.  The guy in the film said that strip of black carbon was on the "grooves" .  Just a terminology thing but have I been wrong for close to 60 years?

Edit: yes good clip...i did 4 barrels like that his morning with both jag & nylon brush with patch wrapped on it.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 27, 2020, 11:59:20 PM
Brownells has the sole "rights" to the JB.  That's probably why I could find no reference anywhere to the "Uncle Eds bore paste".  I compared the two and could not tell a difference between them.  They also seemed to work exactly the same.
Fyi
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 28, 2020, 08:55:49 AM
Either I'm totally off but when I was a kid plowing fields for my grandpa the first pass left the "high land"......thus I have always called the high part of the rifling the lands and the grooves to me were the deepest part.  The guy in the film said that strip of black carbon was on the "grooves" .  Just a terminology thing but have I been wrong for close to 60 years?

Edit: yes good clip...i did 4 barrels like that his morning with both jag & nylon brush with patch wrapped on it.

I agree and wondered who else would notice about the lands.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 09:02:14 AM
Unless i misunderstood him he said the fouling was in the groves  didnt he?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 28, 2020, 09:40:38 AM
@. Grant
Based on his first presentation that was not my understanding. In the last video the disrupted metal surfaces are clearly on the ramp of the lands and on down into the early rifling. With all the cleaning he has done, I just can’t see how that is cracked carbon deposits. Also the ramp on one of the lands appears to be almost non existent. My interpretation may be all wrong and I’m seeing groove and thinking rifling. It’s hard to orient when you don’t have the bore scope in your hands to get the machining depth perception.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 09:48:49 AM
@ jerry.. i will respectfully disagree.. the lands stand proud in the bore.. then you have the groves.. i think that ugly cracking is down in the groves and can be cleaned up.. very few factory barrels that i have seen have all the lands look perfect.. coustom barrels yeah but not factory barrels..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 28, 2020, 10:28:40 AM
Guys this is what I see with the scope.  Added text to a picture.  I've looked at both interpretations of the photos and can clearly see where I think the misinterpretations come into play.  If you look again at the video it clearly shows the ramp leading up to the top of the lands and then the crude or damage begins and then ends.

Gman - I've order the items you suggested for cleaning.  Midway had free shipping again - yea saved a few bucks.

Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 28, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
Unless i misunderstood him he said the fouling was in the groves  didnt he?
Gman, if he is me (Capt) I said lands on my initial post.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 11:54:19 AM
Guys this is what I see with the scope.  Added text to a picture.  I've looked at both interpretations of the photos and can clearly see where I think the misinterpretations come into play.  If you look again at the video it clearly shows the ramp leading up to the top of the lands and then the crude or damage begins and then ends.

Gman - I've order the items you suggested for cleaning.  Midway had free shipping again - yea saved a few bucks.



I interpreted the text in this picture just the opposite..the dark shadow on the side of the lands is telling you its going down in the grooves .. maybe im wrong..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 12:02:54 PM
Gman, if he is me (Capt) I said lands on my initial post.

Capt i was referring to the guy in the video from brownels that dave posted..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 02:57:34 PM
capt can you do me a favor.... if you dont mind unscrew the mirror on your teslong... when you do this it allows the teslong to look out in front of itself... and make another video like you did as its entering the throat and lands.... me and jvw2008 cant decide which of us is right... me or him... lol... bad thing is hes old and cant half see and i know im right :) but he swears im old and cant see and hes right...lol... so if you get a chance can you do this for us... thanks..
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 28, 2020, 03:18:50 PM
Since I started shooting and reloading when Grant was still in diapers, he is trying to tell you I’m the old fart who can’t see!
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 28, 2020, 06:11:59 PM
After watching the Brownell clip again now I'm seeing the groove as he states as the groove as it should be.  Watching it the first few times the "carbon" streak was up on the land....optical illusion....now it seems deeper...the width relationship of groove & land is what fooled me, all my stuff has wider grooves and narrower lands similar to the the OP.
 If I think of it I will snap some real scary pictures of the baked on cra*p.  Before mr. Teslong came along my junk had to be the ultimate of neglect.

I think we are all on the same page.  For me the hard to get carbon lays baked in the grooves starting at within 2 to up to 6" of the throat.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 06:17:38 PM
So randy you think in the ops gun the rough stuff is on the lands?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 28, 2020, 07:03:26 PM
So randy you think in the ops gun the rough stuff is on the lands?
That's way I have always saw his.  I think it is damaged steel from new.  Especially that it only shows on 3 of the 6.  There probably is carbon embedded in the inclusions. But I don't think it will ever "smooth" out completely.
That's the way I see it anyway.

Edit: un-bedded? That was auto-correct.
Edit: embedded....damn randy-correct!
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 28, 2020, 07:34:12 PM
capt can you do me a favor.... if you dont mind unscrew the mirror on your teslong... when you do this it allows the teslong to look out in front of itself... and make another video like you did as its entering the throat and lands.... me and jvw2008 cant decide which of us is right... me or him... lol... bad thing is hes old and cant half see and i know im right :) but he swears im old and cant see and hes right...lol... so if you get a chance can you do this for us... thanks..
Will do but it will be tomorrow at the latest.  Heck don't neither of you feel bad I'm old and can't see either.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 28, 2020, 07:35:15 PM
I definitely think the ugly stuff is on the lands and more importantly the ramp of the lands that begins the engraving on the bullet and I'm having my doubts it's carbon. I'm not saying there may not be a little carbon left but the OP has cleaned it pretty thoroughly now and I definitely think there's some tooling damage there.

I've told many Savage guys the same thing being, don't waste your time getting another factory barrel. Go straight to a good pre fit and start enjoying the gun.
The exception to this advise would be if the gun were going to compete in a factory class and an aftermarket tube would disqualify it from competing.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 28, 2020, 07:48:09 PM
😁😁😁
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 29, 2020, 12:48:11 PM
Pulled this baby off the shelf.  An E.R. Shaw with approx. 2500 rounds.
After the initial patch soaking with Kroil then approximately 200 strokes with patches soaked with JB. About 100 strokes on the jags with patches and then another 100 with a JB patch wrapped around a "wore out" isoso plastic bristle brush.

Quick rinse with kroil and patched to dry.
When this barrel went on the shelf I didn't have the Teslong and thought it was clean! 
I'm getting to like that JB/Kroil/Teslong combination!  I might even try that barrel again.
It has already been a 6.5-06, a 6.5/257 Bob A.I. and a 6.5 Creedmoor.  Might try it as a 260 Creedington...lol
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 29, 2020, 12:58:46 PM
All - attached is the video Grant requested.  Now I'm really confused - I have all along thought the rifling (lands) would be narrower than the grooves.  Now now sure of anything.

Change the extension from .zip to .mp4 before opening
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 29, 2020, 01:34:26 PM
In your latest clip the lands certainly look narrower than the grooves to me.
Hard for me to visualize anything different except for the video clip from Brownells.  He called the narrow section the groove, I disagreed and after looking at his clip 4 or 5 times it did look deeper to me.  But the fact is I don't know if the land/ groove width changes widely with caliber & type of barrel.  I can't imagine a super wide land would engrave well, let alone the pressures it may create.
Just my thoughts, I don't really know.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 29, 2020, 01:37:18 PM
All - attached is the video Grant requested.  Now I'm really confused - I have all along thought the rifling (lands) would be narrower than the grooves.  Now now sure of anything.

Change the extension from .zip to .mp4 before opening

I can't open it, says the file is empty.

The pics above in Randy's post are good. They show the lands with their ramp in the throat are. The grooves are flat from start to finish.

Land/Groove width is likely dependent on many things mostly number of lands. I would guess in a 3 groove the lands would be wider than a 6. Canted or Ratchet rifling probably has different specs and may look different in the scope. Lots of variables.  
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 29, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
I couldn't open yesterday's clip that capt sent.
I found today's let me rename the extension to .mp4 and it opened right away.
But then I tried yesterday's again and it said like yours...file is empty?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 29, 2020, 02:19:07 PM
I can not open it either.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 29, 2020, 02:56:02 PM
I cant open it either.. says file is empty
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 29, 2020, 03:08:19 PM
Maybe I can copy & send.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 29, 2020, 03:22:38 PM
Maybe individual pics would load.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 29, 2020, 03:26:03 PM
Thanks Randy that opened for me. That's a 5 R the shiny gouged up parts are the lands, more specifically the ramps of the lands that begin engraving a bullet. With a low round count I'd say it was delivered that way.

 I'm not sure but I think an RPR barrel could be easily set back like a Savage which should clean up those ramps.

If you had to pay it yourself you'd be better off buying a prefit.

 If you sent the gun back to Ruger they may fix it at their expense or give you a new barrel at their expense. That sounds all well and good but you may get another turd barrel.

I know the Krieger barrels seem high but they're probably worth the extra coin if you need more than 1 MOA steel banging accuracy.
Douglas barrels will make an RPR prefit anyway you want it and I'm sure other companies are making them as well.  

 
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on June 29, 2020, 03:30:49 PM
i concede !!!   in that video it appears to be on the lands.... i would still take the jb bore past to the first 2 or 3 inches of the bore and scrub the crap out of it and see what it looked like...
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: rardoin on June 30, 2020, 08:20:33 AM
After browsing through this thread again looking to see if I missed it, I have to ask, how does it shoot?  I had a nasty looking factory barrel in a gen 1 RPR/6.5 Creedmoor that shot pretty damn good.  It was usually a .5 MOA gun at 100yds off a Harris bipod/rear bag with tuned ammunition.  If a proper load workup has not been done I would lay down the scope and go shoot that bugger ;) .  If it legitimately won't get you under 1 MOA/10 shots at 100yds with good technique then send it back to Ruger.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 30, 2020, 08:46:39 AM
Recently someone on here accused me of being a barrel snob😁. I’m sure they are correct and I guess I’m not going to apologize for it. I believe that working smart saves both time and money. It also can save a lot of frustration. Personally I would never trust this barrel to shoot long term even if I could get it to shoot initially.

I’ll go back to my first response in this thread. The barrel is not worth the time and money to work it up. The pooch was screwed at the factory. It needs to be replaced. How it gets replaced depends on how deep you are willing to go in your pocket and especially how much accuracy is going to be your goal. Realistic numbers are: factory barrel - .5 to 1 MOA; aftermarket - .2 to .5 MOA. If it is always going to be steel target rifle at under 600, the factory will probably get you in the ball park. If your goal is competitive level accuracy at 1000, I would swallow the pill and get the right tool to do the job. I did this with my own RPR, even though the barrel wasn’t damaged”, and in the long run I believe it saved me money and definitely enhanced my enjoyment of the rifle.
I’m not disagreeing with Robin; I’m saying base your decisions on what your have set as your goal.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 30, 2020, 09:54:45 AM
All good points, thought provoking for sure.
Jerry did you "shelf" your original barrel?.........
Problem solving 101....😁
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: rardoin on June 30, 2020, 10:41:37 AM
Oh Jerry....you're such a barrel snob.....  Like we say down in the Looziana swamps..."jus' choot dat!" :D
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 30, 2020, 11:57:46 AM
All good points, thought provoking for sure.
Jerry did you "shelf" your original barrel?.........
Problem solving 101....😁

No I didn’t. I put 400 rounds down it trying every permutation I could think of to get it under .5 MOA. Spent 3 months of work and lots of supplies before I realized I was throwing good money after bad. Level of frustration at that point was off the wall because I knew I wanted to push that rifle to a 1000. Long story short - I got fed up with it and screwed a 26” 5 R Bartlein on. Went from .5 to .2 groups within a couple weeks and just didn’t look back until I wore it out. That rifle wears a Hawk Hill 4 grove today and is starting to show real promise. I’ll never go through trying to make a pig sing again. I sure don’t believe an after market lapped barrel is magic though. I went through a similar experience with a Rock Creek barrel on a 300 Norma. 500 rounds and it was still a dog. Screwed on a Bartlein and went to .3 quickly. Sounds like I’m a Bartlein fan I guess but I am actually equally enamored with Hawk Hills, Kriegers, and Liljas. I haven’t had enough experience with Shilen or Criterion’s to develop a prejudice for them. 
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 30, 2020, 12:49:48 PM
After browsing through this thread again looking to see if I missed it, I have to ask, how does it shoot?  I had a nasty looking factory barrel in a gen 1 RPR/6.5 Creedmoor that shot pretty damn good.  It was usually a .5 MOA gun at 100yds off a Harris bipod/rear bag with tuned ammunition.  If a proper load workup has not been done I would lay down the scope and go shoot that bugger ;) .  If it legitimately won't get you under 1 MOA/10 shots at 100yds with good technique then send it back to Ruger.
JVW I'll let you guy be the judge, attachment represents the best I can get out of it with the amount of rounds I've put through it at 100 yds. - I don't think it's as consistent as advertised by Ruger or other targets I've seen from other shooters.  My fault, rifle's fault or a combination of both sometimes hard to say.  I've sent photos of the barrel to Ruger waiting on a response from them.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 30, 2020, 12:59:41 PM
That barrel doesn't shoot bad at all.

I'd run some Tubb's final finish Bullets through it and shoot it.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: Ranger 188 on June 30, 2020, 01:02:33 PM
It seems to shoot now. The bottom groups look fine.
It's not going to be a 1000yd bench rifle, but I've seen worse.
Shoot it and then when worn out, buy an after market barrel and put on.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on June 30, 2020, 01:57:20 PM
Capt, if you hadn't bought the bore cam you would be like the rest of us trying to improve on what we have.
It certainly shoots good for as far as my style but I mostly shoot "turd" barrels in the first place.  If I didn't have the camera I would call some of mine  really great .  One of my best shooters a 5r Savage has an ugly looking inclusion in one of the grooves close to the throat but still shoots better than I do.
If yours was mine I would shoot it, but maybe every bad day on my part would be blamed on the "badlands"!

Its longevity may or may not come into play but you can have fun with it as is.....interested what Ruger says.....my bet is "send it in and we will look at it".

Good luck whatever you decide.

Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on June 30, 2020, 03:08:47 PM
JVW I'll let you guy be the judge, attachment represents the best I can get out of it with the amount of rounds I've put through it at 100 yds. - I don't think it's as consistent as advertised by Ruger or other targets I've seen from other shooters.  My fault, rifle's fault or a combination of both sometimes hard to say.  I've sent photos of the barrel to Ruger waiting on a response from them.


Is that all the same charge from a developed node, ascending charges, or commercial ammo? First impression from that target is encouraging. I agree with the crew. Shoot it while you are saving up for a replacement.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: eas1949 on June 30, 2020, 03:54:29 PM
If we all bought bore-scopes and looked down our barrels,  90% of us wouldn't be able to sleep at night!

Eric
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on June 30, 2020, 04:10:51 PM
Problem with wanting more - reading to much, trying to get where maybe a person shouldn't go, and thinking good just ain't good enough.  Anyway, I sent the pictures to Ruger and today I received a call and a return label to ship the rifle to them.  Worst that could happen, I'm hoping now, is that I receive what I have back in the shape it was delivered.  Regardless I'll examine first to establish a baseline and then shoot what I get.  Life just don't get any better.  I'll post what Ruger has to say when I find out.

Most of all I wish to thank each and everyone of you for your comments and assistance.  There's no better bunch of people than what the gun community has to offer.  I've learned a great deal more than I knew yesterday and for that I'm grateful.  I'll make note of all the suggested barrels just in case I need one in the near future.

The last photo was the best I have ever got out of this rifle, factory 147 gn. Hornady Match ammo.

Thanks again
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on June 30, 2020, 05:11:50 PM
At 80 rounds the barrel was not broken in past the "speed up" yet so it should have been getting better. I think you probably did the right thing for your situation. I think Ruger will probably take the opportunity to make it right and you should come out of it with a better barrel.
It's encouraging how fast they got back to you and asked to get the rifle back. 
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 02, 2020, 03:40:05 PM
Huf - Yea it surprised me when I got the call, but I've found most companies are like that.  If they tell me that they just had to clean the barrel I'll not be upset.  At least I've learned a valuable lesson and I hope others have also from our conversations.  That's exactly what this site and people are all about.  I have new in the bottle cleaning supplies, hopefully better ones, and learned more about lands & grooves than I ever needed to know.  There is a down side, I have to start all over with load data if the barrel is changed out, Oh Well!

I do appreciate all of the help I've received from all.  A warm heart felt THANK YOU to you all.

I'll follow up with comments/actions Ruger provides.  The rifle is now in the hands of FedEx.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 02, 2020, 03:47:51 PM
If we all bought bore-scopes and looked down our barrels,  90% of us wouldn't be able to sleep at night!

Eric
Eric, I sure stayed up later at night trying to figure out the best approach.  I opened "that can of worms" but you know when this rifle comes back, new barrel or not, I'll have a baseline on it's condition for future reference.  I'll surely take photos of the new barrel if that's how it will end up.  AND borescope just to make sure it's clean when I put it away.  A clean patch coming out the end means very little it seems.  I guess the cleaning solutions used have a lot to do with it.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on July 02, 2020, 04:52:08 PM
capt the only way to know if you have a clean bore is to look in there...  i have learned that a clean patch doesnt mean you have a clean barrel... a bore scope can freak a guy out... learning what your seeing is the key... still working on that here.... 
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on July 02, 2020, 05:53:15 PM
The bore cam and "new to me" cleaning regimens are new to me also.  Slowly been picking away at the idle rifles & barrels.  Some of you more experienced guys probably have noticed that the formerly "clean patched barrels" have more resistance to a tight patch from the throat forward a few inches than the rest of the barrel.  Bore cam has shown me this is the "baked carbon stretch".  After the JB/Kroil cleaning this "tighter area seems gone.  With the only felt resistance to the patch at the "choke" area near the muzzle.   If no else feels this then head games are working overtime in my acorn.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on July 02, 2020, 05:59:04 PM
I'd be very surprised if it comes back without a new barrel.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: boltman13 on July 03, 2020, 05:05:59 PM
I count myself as a barrel snob with the best of them but I agree with Robin, those bottom two groups you showed us with factory amo and a factory barrel look pretty good.  Unless you need a whole lot more precision I would pray Ruger sends it back and start working up the best load the rifle tells you it likes.  Then when that barrel goes south replace it with a quality custom and smile.  Best of luck, keep us posted.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 14, 2020, 08:11:11 AM
This morning received notification that repair on my rifle is complete.  Had to call customer service to get the specifics of the repair.  Barrel was replaced and action cleaned up (what ever that means).  First thing when I get it back is borescope, document results, clean and clean and clean (with all the new cleaning solutions recommended and obtained) and then start shooting.  Hopefully I'll have better results this time around.  Maybe I should see if I can find an ole' fashioned "rabbits foot".
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: jvw2008 on July 14, 2020, 08:17:24 AM
It would be nice to know why they replaced the barrel. Any info on their assessment of the lands area?
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 14, 2020, 08:54:25 AM
I didn't talk to a tech, just customer service with reference to the RMA #.  I'll send an email and see if I can get any specifics on what they found.  I'm assuming with what the borescope identified that the lands were bad and the small defects (gouges) in the action area where cleaned up some.  Just speculation on my part at the moment.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 14, 2020, 09:25:54 AM
capt the only way to know if you have a clean bore is to look in there...  i have learned that a clean patch doesnt mean you have a clean barrel... a bore scope can freak a guy out... learning what your seeing is the key... still working on that here.... 
learning what your seeing is the key - gman that is a wise statement.  Wish I had the data to compare to in order to determine what is OK and what is not.  Not being a gunsmith with years of seeing all type of barrel conditions it is very difficult to judge the condition of the barrels we have.  I can only rely on target results and honestly even that has too many variable that come into play.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 14, 2020, 11:52:10 AM
JVW - This is all I can get out of my email request from Ruger - quote Unfortunately the tech does not put what they found in the notes ,only what they did to the firearm. This is what the tech wrote – replaced barrel, sear, and firing pin assembly - refinished barreled action, safety & function check, proof test, range test, cleaned, and released for shipping. end quote.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on July 14, 2020, 02:55:52 PM
This morning received notification that repair on my rifle is complete.  Had to call customer service to get the specifics of the repair.  Barrel was replaced and action cleaned up (what ever that means).  First thing when I get it back is borescope, document results, clean and clean and clean (with all the new cleaning solutions recommended and obtained) and then start shooting.  Hopefully I'll have better results this time around.  Maybe I should see if I can find an ole' fashioned "rabbits foot".

I know it would be cheaper to screw on a new tube and figured they would. I also bet they had a look at the new barrel to make sure it was good.
I bet you'll be pleased!
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: sportacus on July 14, 2020, 03:29:10 PM
Capt,
Hope you have a great result, but your experience concerns me.  I am a Ruger fan.  Now a little spooked.  Was a "solutions" man most of my life and relished day to day ops in a Level III "shi*storm."  If I were king, everybody in Ruger QC would pi** in a cup for evaluation for letting that barrel get by.  ;)
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on July 14, 2020, 03:56:15 PM
I wonder how many quantity manufacturers actually "bore" scope any of their barrels?  Most test fire but I doubt that they "look" at them.  I have not seen a "perfect" Savage barrel.  There seems to be inclusions and chip gouges in all of "new" takeoff I have bought. Of coarse the machining and button marks are normal and I don't think of them as defects.
Then yet again maybe the sellers of these takeoff barrels have bore scope/cams...lol
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 14, 2020, 08:06:01 PM
I really believe most if not all manufacturers want to do as good a job as possible (within cost restraints I'm sure), but as anything else in life there is no assurance all products will not have some kind of flaw.  Relying on supply chain to do their part is certainly not a sure thing.  I would however thought for the cost of the RPR and all the hype when it was first released there would have been some degree of assurance that the parts are to spec.  We'll see what this new barrel looks like when it is returned.  According to FedEx should be here 07/17.  Been a real learning experience for me.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 18, 2020, 08:59:41 PM
Received my RPR back from Ruger yesterday.  Haven't done anything as far as cleaning.  Since the tech stated cleaning was performed went ahead and done another video on what I have.  I think the tech missed the mark on cleaning.  At least I have a starting point to keep track how the barrel is wearing.  Attached is a video (mp4) zipped of what I have immediately after receipt.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: gman47564 on July 18, 2020, 09:08:38 PM
i wonder if thats somekind of perservative in there to keep it from rusting or something... capt give that thing a good cleaning with some of that new solvent and patches before you send one down it...
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on July 18, 2020, 09:10:53 PM
It definitely needs cleaned but I think all that is whatever rust prohibitor he put in it and all the dust and crap from packaging and shipping.
Run a few patches through it and have another look.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 18, 2020, 09:18:09 PM
Cleaning is my dedicated task for tomorrow for sure.  Good thing I ordered all that new to me cleaning solutions Gman recommended.  Have it all ready to go.  Thanks a bunch for all the valuable information.  Stay safe, shoot well, and Semper fi.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on July 21, 2020, 06:01:40 PM
Five times cleaned.  Did notice long dark runs on top of one or two lands, like scrapes.  Oh well, is what it is, better than before.  Note: Change extension from .zip to .mp4
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: Henryrifle on September 29, 2020, 10:06:07 AM
@CaptMarine:  It sounds like Ruger gave you great customer service.  From what I can see, the new barrel looks good.  It is important that the ramps cut into the lands all start at the same place and all uniformly blend into the lands.  I could only see a few as you pulled the camera out of the chamber but they looked good.

That borescope seems to add a lot of magnification.  That is good and bad.  If you shoot ARs, don't go look at the gas port.  You'll be horrified!

Can't wait to hear how it shoots!

Henryrifle
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on October 07, 2020, 04:01:28 PM
Henryrifle, sure is better than before.  Haven't had a chance to shoot.  Honey do's, Covid restrictions, and hurricane has put a damper on things.  Have to do break-in and load development again.  Start the fun cycle all over again.  If this barrel doesn't pan out then it will be aftermarket for sure.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on November 07, 2020, 08:00:06 AM
Finally made it to the range (100 yds. only).  Shot twenty rounds of factory Federal Gold Metal Match with 130gn Berger bullets for break in (sorta) and 30 rounds of reloads that I had made up for the old barrel. The targets in the attachments are 2".  I wish I could say that I was a good shooter but after not shooting in quiet a while I was less than prepared. Shot off of forward by-pod with no rear rest. Looks like my best grouping is in the 40 - 40.2 gn range with a 147 ELD-Match with Reloder-16.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on November 07, 2020, 08:04:48 AM
CONTINUED - Rest of targets shot - The off shot on 42.4 gn was me for sure.  Being old now my right eye has a tendency to tire easily. No excuse just fact!
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: HufD63 on November 07, 2020, 08:40:19 AM
The 10 shot 42.0 - 42.2 looks pretty good to me. 42.1 might be the spot.
I like how the whole set is a nice round group.

Any type of rear bag would make a lot of the other groups better.

I still think it's hard to beat a set of cheap Caldwell bags for load development.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: CaptMarine on November 07, 2020, 10:16:46 AM
I have bags just didn't bother taking them.  I'll load some more today and hopefully get back to the range better prepared.
Title: Re: RPR Barrel - Ouch
Post by: mnbogboy on August 09, 2021, 09:06:39 PM
My Teslong bore cam was the main reason I studied lead lapping and tried it out on a savage barrel that didnt look much better than that until a thousand strokes of the lap.
I've never tried Tubbs, but there must be some good that comes out of it.
My home lapped barrel looked ok after a while and shot ok too.
Can't say that cleaning real good with jb or iosso pastes won't help a bad barrel but the abrasives in each are bound to remove some "rough" looking spots but i wouldn't bet the farm on it. A good clean down to the metal barrel is bound to shoot better than it did in a carbon or copper fouled state.