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Topic: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations (Read 264 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #15
Chris, great data.  I think you proved why this sport is so challenging...lol

There are may things that influence MV and spread.  I think you have the seating pressure well controlled and measured.  Could there be another element that is causing this?  Things like case volume, bullet BTO/weight, seating depth, not quite at the node?  I am excited about what you have developed and believe that it will be useful, but it only part of the equation.

It would be good, like you said, if you knew which bullets went where.  Also, for each 5 shot group, knowing the ES/SD for that group would be good.  That data may be available from the labradar if imported into excel.  Like your first group clearly shows the impact of the wind.....interesting to know what the MV spread was for that group.

Thanks for sharing !!
Bob
If everything seems under control......you're just not going fast enough

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #16
Chris, great data.  I think you proved why this sport is so challenging...lol

There are may things that influence MV and spread.  I think you have the seating pressure well controlled and measured.  Could there be another element that is causing this?  Things like case volume, bullet BTO/weight, seating depth, not quite at the node?  I am excited about what you have developed and believe that it will be useful, but it only part of the equation.

It would be good, like you said, if you knew which bullets went where.  Also, for each 5 shot group, knowing the ES/SD for that group would be good.  That data may be available from the labradar if imported into excel.  Like your first group clearly shows the impact of the wind.....interesting to know what the MV spread was for that group.

Thanks for sharing !!

I agree with all of this Bob. Chris I too think you've done some brilliant work here but as Bob stated it's not a cure all but a check and balance on one aspect.
Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #17
not quite at the node?
I personally think this has alot to do with high es and sd's
Grant

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #18
not quite at the node?
I personally think this has alot to do with high es and sd's

I agree. This is the crux of ES & SD being the measuring stick. I still chrono all my testing shots but I'm way more interested in what the target has to say but chrono numbers are a good indicator of the whole loading process IMO
Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #19
As Ricky Ricardo famously said "Lucy, you've got some 'splainin to do!"  :D.

I simply don't have enough shooting time budget available so I can always align multiple objectives, such is the case with session. My main goal with this session was to take one last whack at 41.7gr H4350 with a seating depth that showed the most promise. I figured it was going to be either confirmation I'm on the right track, or time to abandon the load; I'm abandoning the load. This rifle has a much broader node back down at 41.3gr H4350 which is where I'm going back to.

Perhaps this was a bad time to also document the session with seating curves but, I only have so much time to try things out :(.

Anyway, below is a picture of the target showing the groups, velocities and metrics. The irony of the best group having the worst metrics is always good for a chuckle   :-X.

Chris

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #20
Chris how many rounds do you have on your barrel.. im assuming your still shooting the browning factory barrel
Grant

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #21
This is why I said if we are after raw accuracy on the target ES & SD are a poor yardstick to judge anything by other than ES  & SD 😁

I think group 2 is the best group regardless of the numbers, has a nice round dispersion with no lost shots. Are these groups different loads or sorted by seating pressure or are they the same load?

Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #22
Chris, thanks for breaking out the data on the 4 groups.  One of the ways that a wide spread in MV shows up on the target is an increase in the vertical spread.  Since you were dealing with some wind, I was very interested in how group 1 data looked since there was minimal vertical and just horizontal that could be caused by the wind.  Interestingly, this was the best ES/SD.  

In just eyeballing the numbers, it does look like the MV is increasing slightly with each group, with the best I would argue being your first.  Perhaps another indicator that you are just on the edge of the node.
Bob
If everything seems under control......you're just not going fast enough

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #23
Chris how many rounds do you have on your barrel.. im assuming your still shooting the browning factory barrel

Same factory barrel, round count I'd guess is <600.
Chris

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #24
I think group 2 is the best group regardless of the numbers, has a nice round dispersion with no lost shots. Are these groups different loads or sorted by seating pressure or are they the same load?

These were all loaded the same and kept in load order so, first load, first shot, last load, last shot. No sorting,
Chris

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #25
I should clarify the thing I don't like about group 1 is the horizontal with no vertical. Assuming number 2 was shot on a similar condition I'd take it over 1 all day as the distance increases 1 will only get wider where 2 will get rounder. If they're the same load as I suspect they are the load is out of tune slightly. IMO
Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #26
Dave, you may be correct.  I was taking "The range was blessed by a healthy left-right crosswind"  as something that needed to be factored in when looking at the group's performance.  No idea of how consistent the wind was and the types of let-ups that were present.....
Bob
If everything seems under control......you're just not going fast enough

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #27
I think we all get to thinking the tool is a fix all ( me included ) but the work done here shows everything else still has to be right. I do think the tool would be a great "gatekeeper" for a finely tuned load catching seating outliers before they wound up in the record side of my box.

I also think the tool would eliminate the question of "maybe something was different" about a round that was out of the group in a test ladder.

Whose to say there was not a glitch on group 2 with the chronograph? An ES of 51 seems unlikely for a 3 shot group IMO, I get chrono readings every session that I question. I strictly use it to see what speed range I'm running in and don't pay any mind to the actual ES  & SD
Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #28
Dave, you may be correct.  I was taking "The range was blessed by a healthy left-right crosswind"  as something that needed to be factored in when looking at the group's performance.  No idea of how consistent the wind was and the types of let-ups that were present.....

So what made 1 go horizontal and what made 2 print a nice round group??? If the chrono data is correct on 2 you have to start questioning seating & barrel time impact on positive compensation but with the other 3 groups being different I think it all points back to a slightly out of tune load.
Dave

Re: Bullet Seating Force Gage ruminations

Reply #29
All we can really do is work up our best load according to the last condition we tested on.
Dave