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Topic: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5. (Read 515 times) previous topic - next topic

6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Main objective is an Accurate (Group size =< 0.5”) for Deer hunting.  Max range 150 ft, typical range 20->40 Yards. Max Velocity not required.
Rifles:  Savage 6.5 CM and Ruger 6.5 CM.  Primers:  Fed 210M and CCI Mag SRP
Case: For Savage – Nosler LRP and Peterson SRP  For Ruger – Luapa SRP and Starline LRP
Bullets:  Barnes 120 grain TTSX and 127 grain LRX.
Powder: Want to try Sta-Ball 6.5.  Also have 4064, Varget and Superformance.  Varget worked very well with the 120 gr TTSX and 140 grain HDY GMX.

Looking for good starting loads.  Will start with sitting depth of 0.06”.
1)   No data on 120 grain Barnes TTSX using SB 6.5.  Did find that Hodgdon listed 41.7 @ 2735 ft/sec and max of 45.3 @ 3004 ft/sec, But this was for HDY A-Max bullet.  Barnes does show data using Superformance (Starting Load 41.4 & Max = 45.0 C).  Looking at diff between Superperfomance and SB 6.5, I could subtract 1 grain from Superformance.
Based I this I Think a good starting point for the 120 gr TTSX would be 42.5 Grains of SB 6.5

2)   For the 127 Grain LRX, Barnes shows starting 39.5 gr @ 2595 & max = 44 C @ 2883 ft/sec.
Thinking 41.5 grains SB 6.5 would be a good starting point.

3)   Can I use the same starting points for both the Fed 210M LRPs and the CCI Mag SRP.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #1
Superformance is an entirely different cat, than any of those others you've listed. Fixed volume bomb testing is how burning rate charts are created, and that won't even begin to describe what Superformance does as far as burning rate shifts.
Superformance has a relatively narrow happy pressure range (in the Creedmoor), to keep consistent progressive burning curves. Outside of that window and it begins to shift to a normal burning rate, but can go sideways pretty quickly.  Sure to the iterative curve shifting, it's not one that you can watch velocities with, and necessarily know what's happening. 
I love the powder in the Creed, but until I started recording pressure curves, it had me completely baffled.

I'm a firm believer in the theory that if it bleeds, I can kill it.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #2
Yes, I found the Superformance to be a good powder for my two 6.5 CM.  43.2 gr of SF, 4 shots, 2 holes 3/8" apart.  3 shots, 3 deers down.  That was with the 140 grain Gameking.  But the Gameking does tear up some meat and found pieces of lead in the meat.

That is the reason I'm switching to all Cu bullets.  And I would like to try Sta-ball 6.5 with the Barnes 120 grain TTSX & the 127 Grain LRX bullets.
I'm in the process of loading 4 rounds each (6 loads
For 120 gr TTSX:  Case Laupa SRP, BBR4 primer, Seating 0.06" off my max COAL.  Started at 42.0
increasing by 0.3 grains to 43.8
For the 127 gr LRX, Case is Nosler, Primer Fed210M, also Off lands by 0.06".  My starting load was 40 gr, increasing 0.5 gr, up to 43.5 grains of SB 6.5

My Range does not open until 1 Sept.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #3
Back to my original question; Initial powder charge and seating depth for the Barnes 120 gr TTSX using Sta-ball 6.5.
What I’ve come up with is starting at 42.3 grains and working up 43.8 in 0.03 grain Increments.  Barnes does NOT list staball 6.5, but hodgdon shows a Max charge of 45.3 grains of SB6.5 – But that’s with the 120 grain A-Max bullet.  My Starting COAL is 0.06” from Max.
Is this a SAFE starting point

Greentop just got in Barnes 6.5 CM VOR-TX (Uses Barnes case & Barnes 120 gr TTSX Bullet) listed Vel = 2910 ft/Sec.
I took it apart – It uses 44.40 grains of a Ball powder.  I do not think it is Superformance as they list 46.0c w/MV of 2932 (f/ 120 g TTSX.  They also show W760 -  43.1 gr max charge @ MV of 2891, So that is a possibility.  ALAS, they do not show Staball 6.5
Interesting: They measure 2.755” (Using my Comparator it would be 3.223 which is what I’m initially setting my reloads to).

 But noticed a big difference.  I discovered 3 different designs in their 120 gr TTSX. 1) Purchased about a year ago. Measures 0.10” less than the Factory ammo bullet.  2) My three boxes of 120 gr TTSX (purchased 1 month ago) are the same length as the Factory ammo (1.312”) BUT the 3 grooves are set back closer to the base ( approx. 0.14”) for the factory Ammo. Translates to: Factory ammo, you do not see any of the grooves, My 3 boxes – you will see the top groove + just a smidgen of the 2nd groove.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #4
(Is this a safe starting point) it should be if hogdon list 45.3 gr. As max. Even though its a different bullet than they tested.. however if your unsure start at hogdons recommended minimum charge weight and just load one round at that then add a half a grain to the next one and keep doing that till you get to your starting charge that you have.. shot them over a chrono if you have one and record the velocity.. it will give you a idea where you want to be.. as far as the powder barnes is using.. forget about that and the charge they used.. most ammo manufacturers use a blend of powders thats not available to the public.. so you cant compare what they use thinking its this powder or that powder.. chances are its not..

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #5
Taking apart factory ammo to determine powder and charge weight is an exercise in useless knowledge.

The factory powders are usually a blend and not available over the counter. As it came up recently I'm sure they're loaded by volume versus weight.

If a person is trying to duplicate a factory load they should verify it works in their gun then shoot a few over a chrono then try to match the speed with the powder they have available.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #6
Understand that the powder is most likely a blend - same as Hornaday's 129 grain Superformance is a blend using Superformance as the main source.  Main reason I took one apart was while the seating depth was identical to what I planned on using there was a difference in placement of the grooves.  Bullet weight was Identical, but the grooves are placed lower than the 120 gr TTSX that I just bought.

Dave.  Have a Chrono, which I always use when developing a load, and I inspect each fired case as they are fired.  I'm not a "Want the max Vel", I want min group size (1/2 inch or less at 100 yards) with low SD numbers.
Hodgdon listed 41.7 grains as starting point, I started @ 42.3 and Increased 0.3 grains up to 43.8 grains ( 4 rounds each set). Hopefully I'll find a good node.

On Chronos:  Late 70's they were very expensive so I designed and Built my own. 

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #7
Chief, I also started using Staball 6.5 in my 6.5 CM rifles.  My last test was with a hunting round as follows:
43.4 gr. SB, Norma LR brass, Wolf LRP, behind Nosler 140 gr. Ballistic Tip, 2.780 OAL.  Initial tests from a Ruger Precision stock rifle gave me a 5 shot - 1 hole group at 100 yds, 2735 fps av with a single digit SD.  These shot amazing!  The Nosler B.T. stuck in the lands at 2.800" so I backed it down to the 2.780".  I decided to reduce OAL a little for a safety margin to 2.760" and reduced the charge to 43.2 gr and it also shot amazingly accurate. 

I plan on testing it more in Match grade ammo since it has become readily available and I managed to get 18 # of it recently. As my tests get done I will post here incase any others want an alternative to H4350, RL16, RL17, etc.


Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #8
Thanks for the info Snaploader.
First off – coodoes on 5 shot/0ne hole @100yards.  I should be so lucky, but then I’m not Irish (LOL) so will settle for =< ½ in.
I have the 120 grain Barnes TTSX loaded for testing with my Savage Axis II Realtree Timber.
I just received 100 rds of Peterson 6.5 CM SRP cases – first time using. They look great – Best packaging.  Slightly heavier than my Laupa SRP. Good SD.  So will check the Peterson Cases out with the Barnes 127 grain LRX.  Rifle is Ruger go-Wild
Will start at 42.5 grains and work up to 43.7 grains (SB6.5). Will start with an OAL of .06 less than Max COAL.  Barnes data shows Max charge of 44.0c @ MV of 2883 ft/sec.

Alas, My range does not open until 1 Sept.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #9
My 6.5mm Creedmoor likes the 130gn Sciroccos over 46.5gn of Superformance with Hornady brass and Winchester large rifle primers. That might seem like a steep load for over the counter Superformance. It’s less than the max listed in the Swift reloading manual.
The 129gn SSTs with RL-17 is also a good load.  The three deer (in three shots) I’ve hit with the Sciroccos were dead right there.
Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.
Every man has got to know his limits.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #10
My 2cent worth.  Ive been using RL16 with a Berger 135CHB in a 22' Remington 700, shoot under 3/8"   Also shooting 95Vmax with H414 under .500.   I building another 6.CRM with 26" barrel,  I saw on Loading data 95Vmax and StaBall6.5 up to 3300fls.  WOW.  But I didn't notice it take aLOT.  

UPDATE: I shot the 95Vmax with middle of road STABALL65 load 46gr,  it shot well, same as H414. I did load some Nosler 120BT with it in
RUGER#1.  I will try them next Wednesday.
Remington 700 6.5CRM Vortex Viper 6-20x44

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #11
I worked up all the way to 45.0 grain of Staball 6.5 in my old a-bolt 2 hunting rifle with 160 grain round nose interlocks. No signs of pressure the entire way until I hit 45.0 grains. Then I got a faint ejector mark but that was also my highest charge weight.

I also tried reloder 23 and reloder 26. Both of them where phenomenal with the heavy round nose. The Staball probably has potential just didn't stack all the charges into the same hole like the other 2 powders did.

As for your charge weights your loading with the Staball powder I would say you should be safe at your starting point even with a mono/solid bullet.

At the hunting ranges your limited to I would definitely take a look at using the old 160 grain round nose interlock bullet. It is almost impossible to beat the the ranges you specified. Especially at creedmoor velocities. That is if the Barnes bullets don't meet your expectations.

Re: 6.5 Creedmoor / Cu Bullet / StaBall 6.5.

Reply #12
THANK,s for all the replies.
1)   From Chase @ Barnes:  They have 120 gr TTSX in the works for testing with SB 6.5. Quote:” For the 6.5 StaBall I would take the 127 gr load data and increase the charges by about 1 grain or so. So I’d start at 40.5 grs and work up from there watching for high pressure signs. Max I’d expect to be 45.0 grs or so.”
2)   For Ruger, 120 Gr Barnes TTSX. Settled on: 43.8 gr SB 6.5, Avg Vo – 2797 Ft/Sec, SD = 4.59 ft/Sec.

 " 4 shots - clover leaf (Picture not showing)

3)    For Savage and Barnes 127 LRX.  (Note: This Savage has a very tight chamber, reducing Max Load).  41.8 gr SB6.5, Vo = 2740 ft/Sec, SD = 4.86 ( Shot @ 1 O’Clock – Me)

4 shots, 3 clover leaf One at 1 O'clock approx 3/4 inch at 1 )'clock.