Hi all-
First of all I'd like to say that I've been following this forum for a while, and I'm impressed with the amount of knowledge and help provided. So decided to join and ask for advice, and hopefully contribute back at some point :) I've been very interested in a rifle chambered in 6.5CM for some time and finally decided on a bolt gun instead of a semi-auto because a)I already have enough gas guns and b)I want this to be a precision rig.
I've tried to do a good deal of research but I'm definitely a rookie in this area so please be gentle if I say/ask anything supid :D (this will be my first go at a real precision gun, and I'm sad to admit my first bolt gun as well).
Here are my goals for the project:
-I want to go custom mainly because I love building rifles, and I'm just one of those guys that likes my guns to be unique. I've done the whole "upgrade a factory rifle over time" thing and would prefer to just build what I want from the start on this one.
-Since this is my first bolt gun I don't want to spend a crazy amount. Trying to keep the build under $2k.
-The gun will mainly be used for killing paper/steel, but would like to hunt with it occasionally as well.
Here's what I've got in mind so far for components, which looks like it'll be around the $1700 range:
-Savage Target Action - I chose this because I've read good things about Savage, as well as the Accutrigger, and I like the fact that I don't need to go to a 'smith for barrel install, etc.
-Shilen Select Match Barrel - read some pretty good things about these barrels
-XLR Element Chassis - seems to be fairly lightweight, customizable, and performs well. not sure if this would be a good option though for taking it hunting. I also think I read that a chassis system like this eliminates the need for bedding, is that true?
-20MOA base, maybe nightforce?
Anyhow I'd love to pick your brains for any thoughts/suggestions. I'm pretty sold on the barrel but not quite as much on the action and stock.
Sorry for the lengthy post! Thanks in advance for your help.
I just went through the same thing. Ended up right around that $2K mark for a 'nearly' custom gun based on a Winchester action. I only say nearly custom because it started with a factory action; although it was blueprinted. This was my first custom, first bolt, very similar story to yours really.
What gave me fits for the longest time was deciding what I wanted. To give an analogy I'll talk about my days selling boats. Occasionally someone would want a boat to party on(talking grill and seating for 20, fish from, and ski behind). Now, I was able to put together a deckboat, or some other Tri-toon pontoon boat contrivances that could get it all done. None of them could out fish my rig, out perform my buddies wakeboat, or accommodate a party like a 25 foot pontoon...but they kinda did all the jobs.
What I ended up with is no kind of F-Class getup. But it shoots 1/3" groups at 100yds and rings steel 300 and every time I stretch her legs she just stands right up to the challenge. I think as a range gun it would be a hell of a good Silhouette's setup (want to shoot a 12-20# gun standing?)...for humping over hill and dale I wouldn't want a bit more.
$2000.00 + a good personal assessment + patience + research = a rifle you will thoroughly love. Also, don't skimp on the glass. But also don't drop the ball on fitting the scope to the rifle. I consider what I have on my rig to be absolute MAX for that type of gun...I got some good advice that helped early on or I would have had 3 pound scope with 50 MM Ocular; which would have been ungainly and left me with a gun that has an identity crisis.
In my case, wanting a nimble and handy hunting rifle took precedence. What I have is not exactly a mountain rifle but closer to that than a dedicated range gun. There may be something in the middle but it will be a jack of all trades and master of none...sorry, like I said just went through the same thing.
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5db06b3127ccee9637cbc476200000040O00AcOXLRizYuGwPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00608131499820150528014118721.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
(http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a5db04b3127ccee9671d6b367400000070O00AcOXLRizYuGwPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00608131499820150526021631165.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)
Welcome.
Savage target action? Single feed only.
One of the reasons many choose to go with the 6.5CM is because the round can be setup for utmost accuracy by capitalizing on a short jump and still feed from a DBM or internal mag with a working COAL.
If I was considering hunting w/ it I'd want another round quickly need be.
If you're set on a prefit, Shilen barrel is a good choice. You can also go the Rem/Age barrel nut system and go prefit on a Rem 700 as an option. Food for thought is all.
I prefer Ken Farrell bases. Don't know how deep you plan on going with stick? @ 1000yds you'll need about 9mills +/- w/ an average 2750 mv and 140gr. so if your going with a good scope with enough elevation you won't need the 20moa base but it won't hurt either way.
I'm building one now and going with a Manners. If you don't want to bed you can get a mini chassis and with a good barrel (properly fit) and load development it's not unrealistic to expect 1/2 MOA. If you skim bed 1/4 MOA could be attained if you are willing to do your part with the reloading aspect.
Taking a stock savage action, stock trigger group, putting a prefit pipe on and dropping it into an aftermarket stock- not bedded, really isn't custom tho. Custom will cost you more than $2k imho is all. Good luck and again welcome.
If you are going to try to do a $2K build with optics, then it will be difficult to go custom. You can do it, but will require a lot of patience to wait for stuff to go on sale. Assuming you are only spending 2K on the rifle and not the optic, I would do this:
Here's what I've got in mind so far for components, which looks like it'll be around the $1700 range:
-Savage Target Action - I chose this because I've read good things about Savage, as well as the Accutrigger, and I like the fact that I don't need to go to a 'smith for barrel install, etc.
Instead of a savage action, I would go with a Remington 700 pattern action. You can go with a Stiller Tac30 action. Comes with a pinned recoil lug and a 20 MOA base. - $1005
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97_98&product_id=209
-Shilen Select Match Barrel - read some pretty good things about these barrels
I would go with a Remage barrel setup with a barrel nut. No smithing needed: http://northlandshooterssupply.com/match-grade-barrels/criterion-remington-barrels/
26″ – Stainless Match – Rem/Age – Varmint – 6.5 Creedmoor – 8 Twist – $328.00
-XLR Element Chassis - seems to be fairly lightweight, customizable, and performs well. not sure if this would be a good option though for taking it hunting. I also think I read that a chassis system like this eliminates the need for bedding, is that true?
Yes, this does not require bedding. It is a V-block style mounting system. I like this chassis, but cost is a little much for the budget. I would go with this: https://www.magpul.com/products/hunter-700-stock-%E2%80%93-remington%C2%AE-700-short-action - $259
-20MOA base, maybe nightforce? Not needed as it comes with the Stiller action
You will need a trigger and I would go with a Timney Calvin Elite or Jewell trigger - If you are hunting, then maybe the Timney - $170
This leaves you with about 200 bucks. Not bad egh? ::) :P
thank you all very much for your input, I truly appreciate it. it has certainly given me some more to think about. I do like the Rem/Age suggestion, that was on my radar but I'll look more at it.
and sorry for not clarifying a few things initially:
-I did mean $2k before optics. I still have much research to do in this arena so I won't pester you guys just yet asking about it - having said that I'll listen to suggestions if anyone has any
-The max range will most likely be 800 for now as there isn't anything longer in my area
-sorry if folks around here have a different definition of "custom," I told you I was a rookie :) simply meant something not bought as a complete factory rifle
-I do realize the "ace of all trades" unicorn gun doesn't exist so apologies if it sounded like that's what I'm going for. This will be primarily a target gun, but wanted to avoid anything that would make it unfeasible for taking hunting a couple times - like what Danbonzo pointed out about the action being single feed only, not sure how I missed that :-[ /doh/
@westside benny - I'd be interested to hear the details on your setup
thanks again for the help, I look forward to doing some more research and hearing more from y'all
dang i want to contribute to this post but dont think i can-
a dual port savage action is a good choice for a starter- i prefer a 700 action if not the full blown custom action like bat b, defiance, or borden rimrock. a trued , blueprinted short action 700 is around 450.00 and dollar for dollar are hard to beat.
i used to shoot shilen ss select match barrells a long time ago but in a 264 caliber the bartlein's are dominating. 1:8 twist 5r are 350.00 - whatever you get make sure its atleast finished at 28 in, the longer the better.
jewell trigger is a must but they dont make them for savage.
as for stocks -i cant say. for ME i do NOT like a chassis style tacticool stock, for a really good stock that tracks well and wont break the bank look at bell& carlson medalist, they have an aluminum block inside an pillar blocks .
egw makes a 20 moa rail that is alot cheaper than a nightforce. this is my opinion but theres no way i d build a rifle and not bed it. never had a chassis system though.
except for the action my gunsmith has everything you need on the shelf and i can get you a heck of a deal.
i ll put my reputation on his work too .he ll be as cheap or probobly cheaper than anyone else too.
I completed my custom build last fall. A Savage Target Action (RBRP), HS Precision Stock, Shilen select match 26 in Bull barrel, PTG bolthead, Murphy precision 20 moa base. I named my rifle Mjolnir.
[media id=1165 type=preview align=center caption="Mjolnir and Hubbel JR 1"]
He is way to heavy to take hunting unless the hunting is a field of prairie dogs.
However I have been thinking about your build and my suggestion would be a Savage SS Varmint action, HS Precision stock. I would pick a shilen select match varmint barrel, PTG bolthead, upgraded barrel lug and nut, and CTI bottom metal.
http://www.cdiprecisiongunworks.com/index.html
Eric
I second the B&C medalist stock. I just dropped my savage into one.
Quote from: Stevereno on June 01, 2015, 10:28:48 AMI second the B&C medalist stock. I just dropped my savage into one.
I third it, I bedded a savage 10 in a B&C. The aluminum chassis is great for the price point. Shoots lights out. I would always want a layed up stock and bedded action over any of the Tupperware offerings. Again just my preference and opinion
it aint no tooley or mcmillan for sure but for less than 250.00 theyre like a sore peter... hard to beat :D
[media id=1166 type=preview align=center caption="20150516 105411 1"]
I just built this one.
Quote from: swampthang on June 01, 2015, 11:53:19 AMit aint no tooley or mcmillan for sure but for less than 250.00 theyre like a sore peter... hard to beat :D
LMAO
thanks for the advice everyone! too many responses to reply individually but I really appreciate the honest feedback - nowhere near the amount of a-holeness as some other forums :)
@swampthang thank you very much for the offer, I'll PM you once I've got a more finalized list together and see if your smith can help.
could you shed some light on why you said the barrel must be 28" or longer? seen quite a few 26" and even some 24" builds - is there really that much difference bumping up to a 28"?
those B&C stocks do look like quite a bit of bang for your buck. the Style 2 and Style 3 look solid, anyone have any input on 2 vs 3? also are there any shooters out there on the smaller side using them comfortably? i'm only 5'7"
@slickrick0999 looks good, mind sharing the component details? and what does she weigh?
Here was my build. This doesn't include my McRee chassis, bipod, scope and rings.
This was done 2yrs ago..
[media id=1167 type=full align=center caption="image"]
Savage 4.4" action with side bolt release
PTG bolt head
factory ACCU-Trigger
Weaver 20moa base
Criterion barrel cut to 24" and threaded, trued recoil lug and barrel nut from NSS.
XLR Element Chassis w/folding adapter and NIV mount.
Nightforce F1 scope in NF Ultralight Rings & AAD Scope caps
ALPHA mags
Don't know about the weight, I'll check
Quote from: Rooks on June 01, 2015, 06:56:09 PMHere was my build. This doesn't include my McRee chassis, bipod, scope and rings.
This was done 2yrs ago..
[media id=1167 type=full align=center caption="image"]
did you buy this as a barreled action from Shilen? I looked at those pretty hard but almost impossible to stay under $2k going that route. how are you liking yours so far?
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Quote from: slickrick0999 on June 01, 2015, 07:03:57 PMSavage 4.4" action with side bolt release
PTG bolt head
factory ACCU-Trigger
Weaver 20moa base
Criterion barrel cut to 24" and threaded, trued recoil lug and barrel nut from NSS.
XLR Element Chassis w/folding adapter and NIV mount.
Nightforce F1 scope in NF Ultralight Rings & AAD Scope caps
ALPHA mags
Don't know about the weight, I'll check
sweet build!
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one more question guys: looking at the Stiller Tac30 actions recommended earlier - if I want to go with the chassis system or a B&C w/CDI bottom metal, I would want to go with the A/W variant correct?
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97_98&product_id=211
Yes this was a barreled action directly from Shilen. This was 2 years ago, so I'm sure the prices have increased since then. BTW, their DGR action is a Stiller TAC-30 action
You do end up going for a Rem700 setup
Definitely spend a little extra on a Stiller, Defiance or Surgeon action
Money better spent than on trueing a factory Rem IMO
Plus you get integral lugs rails etc depending on what you go for.
Enjoy the shopping
Looks like my scalvage is coming in around 12-14 lbs. That's the best honest guess with my 1982 bathroom scales anyway.
My .308 is built on a Surgeon action, very nice product I've been extremely happy with but there is more $ involved.
I did the savage just to do it, buddy at work has built several, and I like to tinker. I've been happy with it so far. The action is not like a custom but I didn't pay for a custom action either.
Quote from: Rooks on June 01, 2015, 07:53:49 PMYes this was a barreled action directly from Shilen. This was 2 years ago, so I'm sure the prices have increased since then. BTW, their DGR action is a Stiller TAC-30 action
just looked at your build thread, that's one slick looking gun!
I was reading another build thread on here using a Shilen barreled action, that indicated the DGR is the same as the Tac30 with the following exceptions:
-DGR has a floating bolthead
-DGR has barrel nut to accept Savage prefit barrels
http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=2831.0
The above thread also points out the DGR has a Sako/M 16 style extractor - anyone know if the Stiller also has this or is it a remington style extractor?
Also seeing as the DGR is made by Stiller - is it the A/W variant or no? would like to run a chassis or bottom metal w/AI mags
i guess to put it another way, would the Shilen barreled action (min $1500) be worth the price bump over buying the components separately and assembling them yourself? (Shilen action $950 + NSS Nut $28 + Shilen barrel $339 = $1317 not sure if the Shilen action includes the base but if not that's another $50-100, so still less than the barreled action)
seems like buying direct from Shilen is just plain pricey - they want $200 for their standard trigger w/safety and I see it elsewhere online for half that...
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Quote from: slickrick0999 on June 01, 2015, 09:50:09 PMLooks like my scalvage is coming in around 12-14 lbs. That's the best honest guess with my 1982 bathroom scales anyway.
My .308 is built on a Surgeon action, very nice product I've been extremely happy with but there is more $ involved.
I did the savage just to do it, buddy at work has built several, and I like to tinker. I've been happy with it so far. The action is not like a custom but I didn't pay for a custom action either.
if that weight is with glass I don't think it's too terrible. would it be my primary hunting rifle? of course not, but could I take it out if I wanted to? sure could. some of my hunts don't require much hiking so 12-14lbs w/glass is doable
Quote from: dskav on June 01, 2015, 11:55:56 PMQuote from: Rooks on June 01, 2015, 07:53:49 PMYes this was a barreled action directly from Shilen. This was 2 years ago, so I'm sure the prices have increased since then. BTW, their DGR action is a Stiller TAC-30 action
just looked at your build thread, that's one slick looking gun!
I was reading another build thread on here using a Shilen barreled action, that indicated the DGR is the same as the Tac30 with the following exceptions:
-DGR has a floating bolthead
-DGR has barrel nut to accept Savage prefit barrels
http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=2831.0
The above thread also points out the DGR has a Sako/M 16 style extractor - anyone know if the Stiller also has this or is it a remington style extractor?
Also seeing as the DGR is made by Stiller - is it the A/W variant or no? would like to run a chassis or bottom metal w/AI mags
i guess to put it another way, would the Shilen barreled action (min 00) be worth the price bump over buying the components separately and assembling them yourself? (Shilen action 0 + NSS Nut + Shilen barrel 9 = 17 not sure if the Shilen action includes the base but if not that's another -100, so still less than the barreled action)
seems like buying direct from Shilen is just plain pricey - they want 0 for their standard trigger w/safety and I see it elsewhere online for half that...
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Quote from: slickrick0999 on June 01, 2015, 09:50:09 PMLooks like my scalvage is coming in around 12-14 lbs. That's the best honest guess with my 1982 bathroom scales anyway.
My .308 is built on a Surgeon action, very nice product I've been extremely happy with but there is more $ involved.
I did the savage just to do it, buddy at work has built several, and I like to tinker. I've been happy with it so far. The action is not like a custom but I didn't pay for a custom action either.
if that weight is with glass I don't think it's too terrible. would it be my primary hunting rifle? of course not, but could I take it out if I wanted to? sure could. some of my hunts don't require much hiking so 12-14lbs w/glass is doable
Yes the Stiller comes with m16/sako extractor and is a solid contender to do a barreled action which is another option you can go, more costly than a pre-fit but it is a blueprinted foundation to build off of. A fitted barrel is all about keeping a super low run out to axis of bore. Not only the bore of the barrel but the action as well because you want the bolt face perfectly square to this axis. All mating faces are/should trued when fitted. You just don't get that when screwing em together, you can get close and they can be real shooters so keep that in mind also. I'm fearful that I keep coming off as a Shnob but you get what you pay for, so think hard on what you want before you start buying components is all.
This is my current 6.5CM build sheet;
Stiller tac30 -20 MOA base
Brux barrel 1:8 A/O contour
Manners T4A w/ mini chassis and DBM. AI mags
Timney Calvin elite trigger
APA rings
APA little bastard GEN2 brake.
Undecided on glass.. Looking hard at both Steiner and Kahles.
Stock shipped today! Finally!!! :)
alot of good builds ,great components and good advice.
i base my thoughts off what a bench rest build could start with. for heavy hunting/ f-open ,tactical build or banging steel i agree with some of the other actions, stocks, triggers, and bottom metal choices.
however, theres no doubt what my choice of barrells for a 6.5 creedmoor would be and its bartlein, they have found something in theyre 264 barrells that just flat outperform day in day out any other, not saying the others wont shoot, bartlein just shoot better. i say as 28 inch or longer because the creedmoor typically isnt a speed demon, some shoot faster than others but id say average fps for a 140 is 2800fps or less, to keep the speed up to get to the next higher velocity node i would recommend a longer than average barrell length.sure the shorter lighter easier to handle 22,24 or 26 in barrells will shoot but the faster you get the bullet to the target, the better.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 03:31:48 AMYes the Stiller comes with m16/sako extractor and is a solid contender to do a barreled action which is another option you can go, more costly than a pre-fit but it is a blueprinted foundation to build off of. A fitted barrel is all about keeping a super low run out to axis of bore. Not only the bore of the barrel but the action as well because you want the bolt face perfectly square to this axis. All mating faces are/should trued when fitted. You just don't get that when screwing em together, you can get close and they can be real shooters so keep that in mind also. I'm fearful that I keep coming off as a Shnob but you get what you pay for, so think hard on what you want before you start buying components is all.
This is my current 6.5CM build sheet;
Stiller tac30 -20 MOA base
Brux barrel 1:8 A/O contour
Manners T4A w/ mini chassis and DBM. AI mags
Timney Calvin elite trigger
APA rings
APA little bastard GEN2 brake.
Undecided on glass.. Looking hard at both Steiner and Kahles.
Stock shipped today! Finally!!! :)
congrats, glad your build is coming together! is that the last piece besides glass? I'm undecided on glass as well to say the least, I'm overwhelmed by all the options haha. I may just stick w/something popular and reasonably priced like a Vortex PST 6-24. but who knows.
I can appreciate what you're saying about the advantages of a fitted barrel vs a screw-in, however for me personally, for this build, I don't think that outweighs the advantages of the screw-in.
As for getting what you pay for I also agree, at least to a certain extent. For areas that are a little more subjective though, like stock and trigger, I want to start with some less expensive options to start out - since this is my first bolt gun I think I should gain some experience and learn what I like and don't like before spending a lot of money on things that are largely personal preference. For this reason I'm thinking I'll spend a bit less on these areas and spend it on action/barrel instead.
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Quote from: swampthang on June 02, 2015, 04:39:01 AMalot of good builds ,great components and good advice.
i base my thoughts off what a bench rest build could start with. for heavy hunting/ f-open ,tactical build or banging steel i agree with some of the other actions, stocks, triggers, and bottom metal choices.
however, theres no doubt what my choice of barrells for a 6.5 creedmoor would be and its bartlein, they have found something in theyre 264 barrells that just flat outperform day in day out any other, not saying the others wont shoot, bartlein just shoot better. i say as 28 inch or longer because the creedmoor typically isnt a speed demon, some shoot faster than others but id say average fps for a 140 is 2800fps or less, to keep the speed up to get to the next higher velocity node i would recommend a longer than average barrell length.sure the shorter lighter easier to handle 22,24 or 26 in barrells will shoot but the faster you get the bullet to the target, the better.
to be quite honest with you, I'm a bit intimidated when I try to look at Bartlein haha. I don't feel I have the experience to pick the right contour, lenth, etc. and then find the right shop to have the rest of the work done to get it installed. the Shilen drop-in options simplify things a bit for a novice like me. similar to my thoughts about stocks and triggers mentioned above, I'm thinking that once I get some more experience I'll get a better understanding of what I'll need for the next build ;D
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after doing some more research and with all the fantastic help provided here, I think I'm now leaning towards this list of components:
-Shilen DGR action - $950
-Shilen stainless select match S7 contour 26" - $340
-Bell&Carson tactical medalist style 3 - $255
-Shilen standard trigger w/safety - $105
-CDI bottom medal - $210
^ that is a solid platform. I think it wise to put the majority of expense in the barrel and action which is the heart of the rifle. The stock and and all other components can easily be replaced or hot rodded down the road.
Also (this is just my opinion again) don't skimp on a good trigger. You'll be pissed if you do.
can anyone confirm if the base, recoil lug, and barrel nut are included when buying the Shilen action by itself? if not, then when I factor that in I might as well just go with a barreled action from Shilen for $1500. and if I go that route I also should be able to put off buying headspace gauges for now.
if I order the barreled action from them I'd have the opportunity to bump up to 28" barrel for $20, is it worth the extra cost, weight, and loss of maneuverability? some of the groups I've seen posted from a 26" Shilen barreled action look pretty solid, but those are mostly 100-500yd targets. if the benefits aren't seen until longer ranges, what type of range are we talking about before there is a noticeable difference in performance w/the 28"?
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 05:32:40 AM^ that is a solid platform. I think it wise to put the majority of expense in the barrel and action which is the heart of the rifle. The stock and and all other components can easily be replaced or hot rodded down the road.
Also (this is just my opinion again) don't skimp on a good trigger. You'll be pissed if you do.
what are your thoughts on the Shilen standard trigger? there seem to be mostly positive reviews online. I don't think their competition trigger would be a good idea since I want to hunt w/this gun from time to time, and the timney calvin elite (my second choice right now) is about 50% more expensive
I would buy the barreled action. These guys do this everyday and know how to set up a rifle. It's like going to an engine builder, your buying his experience more than his product.
Barrel length is preference. Bench guys are always going to lean towards longer is better.
Tac guys want the maneuverability.
Which is best? What ever works for you. I know a guy who takes his 24" 6.5 Creed out to a mile np.
I don't know enough about Shilen trigger to comment. But I will say, if you are taking the plunge and going the "custom" (smart btw) route. What's another $100 to get a Timney or a Jewel trigger group and have the best and be smiling for many thousands of rounds?
Quote from: dskav on June 01, 2015, 11:55:56 PMQuote from: Rooks on June 01, 2015, 07:53:49 PMYes this was a barreled action directly from Shilen. This was 2 years ago, so I'm sure the prices have increased since then. BTW, their DGR action is a Stiller TAC-30 action
just looked at your build thread, that's one slick looking gun!
I was reading another build thread on here using a Shilen barreled action, that indicated the DGR is the same as the Tac30 with the following exceptions:
-DGR has a floating bolthead
-DGR has barrel nut to accept Savage prefit barrels
http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=2831.0
The above thread also points out the DGR has a Sako/M 16 style extractor - anyone know if the Stiller also has this or is it a remington style extractor?
Thanks for the compliments. There are a lot of nice looking setups on here. You're correct about the 2 points above you asked about. The M16 extractor is another option. Mine doesn't have one, but I do have one on my 338LM. It does throw the brass further than my 6.5 but both have work flawlessly.
Here's my final 2 cents to try and help you out. You are headed in the right direction. I was in the EXACT same position 2yrs ago when I did my build. I was intimidated with all the information and I didn't want to mess something up. That's why I had Shilen do the complete build. Knowing what I know now, would I go back to Shilen? Sure, but when I built my custom 338LM I tried a different gunsmith and ordered my parts to him because I felt more confident in what I was doing. If/when I build another 6.5CM my components would be: defiance or mausingfield action, Bartlein 5R 26" rem varmit or M24 contour and Calvin elite trigger. I would use this for PRS events.
I had a budget too, but with a custom build it quickly got increased. Take the TIME to get what YOU want and build for what you want to DO WITH IT. All the info listed above to you from these guys is all good but we all have our own experiences and want to try to give the best options lol. In the long run, what's 20-30 dollars? Jewel, Calvin Shilen triggers are all close in price.
You can run your AI mags in the stiller. That will be more of an issue with your chassis. Someone may correct me on this..
Goodluck and keep the questions coming. Just don't be afraid to call the companies and gunsmith and ask. Shilen and Short Action Customs are the 2 I have experience with and recommend them. SAC did my 338 which is in the "wildcat" section of this forum. In the end, the final decision is always yours...so don't mess up ;)
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 06:06:08 AMI would buy the barreled action. These guys do this everyday and know how to set up a rifle. It's like going to an engine builder, your buying his experience more than his product.
Barrel length is preference. Bench guys are always going to lean towards longer is better.
Tac guys want the maneuverability.
Which is best? What ever works for you. I know a guy who takes his 24" 6.5 Creed out to a mile np.
I don't know enough about Shilen trigger to comment. But I will say, if you are taking the plunge and going the "custom" (smart btw) route. What's another $100 to get a Timney or a Jewel trigger group and have the best and be smiling for many thousands of rounds?
fair point on getting the barreled action. as for the barrel length maybe i'll just draw straws for it lol
the Timney/Jewell aren't out of the running, I'm still back and forth on that choice too :-\
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Quote from: Rooks on June 02, 2015, 06:14:31 AMThanks for the compliments. There are a lot of nice looking setups on here. You're correct about the 2 points above you asked about. The M16 extractor is another option. Mine doesn't have one, but I do have one on my 338LM. It does throw the brass further than my 6.5 but both have work flawlessly.
Here's my final 2 cents to try and help you out. You are headed in the right direction. I was in the EXACT same position 2yrs ago when I did my build. I was intimidated with all the information and I didn't want to mess something up. That's why I had Shilen do the complete build. Knowing what I know now, would I go back to Shilen? Sure, but when I built my custom 338LM I tried a different gunsmith and ordered my parts to him because I felt more confident in what I was doing. If/when I build another 6.5CM my components would be: defiance or mausingfield action, Bartlein 5R 26" rem varmit or M24 contour and Calvin elite trigger. I would use this for PRS events.
I had a budget too, but with a custom build it quickly got increased. Take the TIME to get what YOU want and build for what you want to DO WITH IT. All the info listed above to you from these guys is all good but we all have our own experiences and want to try to give the best options lol. In the long run, what's 20-30 dollars? Jewel, Calvin Shilen triggers are all close in price.
You can run your AI mags in the stiller. That will be more of an issue with your chassis. Someone may correct me on this..
Goodluck and keep the questions coming. Just don't be afraid to call the companies and gunsmith and ask. Shilen and Short Action Customs are the 2 I have experience with and recommend them. SAC did my 338 which is in the "wildcat" section of this forum. In the end, the final decision is always yours...so don't mess up ;)
haha thanks rooks, I really appreciate all the help. i've been meaning to give shilen a call but just have a hard time finding free time during business hours to do so. and you're right, being patient is becoming a challenge, been drooling over some sweet bolt guns for a while now and I really want my own already ;D
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another question for y'all: what are your thoughts on having the barrel threaded for a muzzle brake?
If you want to hunt with this rig, you'll be fine anywhere between 22-26". This is an optimal length for the creedmoor.
My barrel is 28" of rifling with the S8 contour. It's 16.5lbs. I wish I would have gone 26" m24 contour to lighten it up.
I'm right around 2850fps with 142's. I tested some 108's last weekend. 6.2mils to 950yds which is 3200fps. This is another topic I haven't posted yet. :)
Anyway, go with 24-26" and a rem varmit or m24 contour (Bartlein) and you will be just fine. I think on Shilens website, this would be an S6-S7 contour.
What Rooks said on barrel length.
I would thread it, all my sticks get brakes
Quote from: Rooks on June 02, 2015, 06:40:52 AMIf you want to hunt with this rig, you'll be fine anywhere between 22-26". This is an optimal length for the creedmoor.
My barrel is 28" of rifling with the S8 contour. It's 16.5lbs. I wish I would have gone 26" m24 contour to lighten it up.
I'm right around 2850fps with 142's. I tested some 108's last weekend. 6.2mils to 950yds which is 3200fps. This is another topic I haven't posted yet. :)
Anyway, go with 24-26" and a rem varmit or m24 contour (Bartlein) and you will be just fine. I think on Shilens website, this would be an S6-S7 contour.
Better put that topic up Matt. What load are you running behind the 108s?
thanks guys, I like the idea of sticking with a 24"-26" barrel. what would you say the weight difference is for each 2" increase/decrease?
are there tangible benefits to the brake besides recoil reduction? I would like to have a brake but that's another couple hundred bucks for the brake and getting the barrel threaded, so might pass for now - not sure though
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also does anyone here feel strongly one way or another about barrel fluting? not sure if it's worth it for this build
Would someone explain why a Stiller Tac 30 action is better than a Savage target action?
Quote from: eas1949 on June 02, 2015, 08:33:12 AMWould someone explain why a Stiller Tac 30 action is better than a Savage target action?
Why better Eric? Different. Tactical shooters want to use magazines.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 10:02:12 AMQuote from: eas1949 on June 02, 2015, 08:33:12 AMWould someone explain why a Stiller Tac 30 action is better than a Savage target action?
Why better Eric? Different. Tactical shooters want to use magazines.
Ok, I understand you can get a Savage Varmint Action for 500.00 and use the CDI bottom metal with it. How is Stiller Tac 30 better than the Savage Varmint Action with a PTG bolthead?
Erichttp://www.midwayusa.com/product/929909/ptg-bolt-head-savage-10-series-308-bolt-face-right-hand?cm_vc=ProductFinding
http://northlandshooterssupply.com/savage-actions/
Don't waste your money on barrel fluting, unless you are trying to stay is a certain weight class for a comp.
As for the brake, a 10-12# creedmoor doesn't need one unless you absolutely need to spot a miss for a follow up shot. I don't like brakes for hunting either. Why, because sometimes you forget to wear hearing protection and it hurts.
My take on triggers is 1# or lighter for a bench gun. 2-3# for hunting.
Why. 30 degrees, cold hands and gloves equals blowing apart a tree branch as you cycle the bolt cause your glove brushed the trigger.
As for the action, if you can afford an action with an integral rail and lug, do it. Its newer tech and fewer pins and screws that you have to worry about checking if you have problems.
And I will say there is nothing wrong with a savage action. But I consider a custom gun one that has a custom action, not a factory action modified to be better. When you brake down the pricing, it just makes sense to save up longer for the custom action.
my 2 cents.
Difference in 2" of barrel weight is 4-8 oz maybe depending on the contour.
Quote from: kalindark on June 02, 2015, 10:21:55 AMDon't waste your money on barrel fluting, unless you are trying to stay is a certain weight class for a comp.
As for the brake, a 10-12# creedmoor doesn't need one unless you absolutely need to spot a miss for a follow up shot. I don't like brakes for hunting either. Why, because sometimes you forget to wear hearing protection and it hurts.
My take on triggers is 1# or lighter for a bench gun. 2-3# for hunting.
Why. 30 degrees, cold hands and gloves equals blowing apart a tree branch as you cycle the bolt cause your glove brushed the trigger.
As for the action, if you can afford an action with an integral rail and lug, do it. Its newer tech and fewer pins and screws that you have to worry about checking if you have problems.
And I will say there is nothing wrong with a savage action. But I consider a custom gun one that has a custom action, not a factory action modified to be better. When you brake down the pricing, it just makes sense to save up longer for the custom action.
my 2 cents.
Difference in 2" of barrel weight is 4-8 oz maybe depending on the contour.
cool, you've confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. do you recommend Defiance for an action w/integral rail and lug?
I would go with either the deviant or the surgeon action. Surgeon is a slightly smaller and lighter action and would be my pick for hunting.
For tactical and bench use I'd go with deviant.
Deviant has an m16 extraction
Surgeon has a Remington style extraction.
Deviant needs its own stock inletting
Surgeon has the same footprint as a 700 action.
If you are only going to build one custom rifle you can't go wrong with either one. But I bet you can't build just one :)
Quote from: kalindark on June 02, 2015, 11:21:21 AMI would go with either the deviant or the surgeon action. Surgeon is a slightly smaller and lighter action and would be my pick for hunting.
For tactical and bench use I'd go with deviant.
Deviant has an m16 extraction
Surgeon has a Remington style extraction.
Deviant needs its own stock inletting
Surgeon has the same footprint as a 700 action.
If you are only going to build one custom rifle you can't go wrong with either one. But I bet you can't build just one :)
haha oh I'm sure you're right, I'm sure they'll end up being like pringles
I'll think about a Deviant/Surgeon. will it really make that much difference over the DGR? point being I really don't want to get too carried away with this build. a few bucks here and there, and before you know it I'll go from trying to keep the rifle under $2k to having a $3500 build
Quote from: dskav on June 02, 2015, 11:50:00 AMQuote from: kalindark on June 02, 2015, 11:21:21 AMI would go with either the deviant or the surgeon action. Surgeon is a slightly smaller and lighter action and would be my pick for hunting.
For tactical and bench use I'd go with deviant.
Deviant has an m16 extraction
Surgeon has a Remington style extraction.
Deviant needs its own stock inletting
Surgeon has the same footprint as a 700 action.
If you are only going to build one custom rifle you can't go wrong with either one. But I bet you can't build just one :)
haha oh I'm sure you're right, I'm sure they'll end up being like pringles
I'll think about a Deviant/Surgeon. will it really make that much difference over the DGR? point being I really don't want to get too carried away with this build. a few bucks here and there, and before you know it I'll go from trying to keep the rifle under k to having a 00 build
Uh yup $3500 sounds right....
The 12-14 lbs was with the nightforce on it.
Everything except bipod and mag.
The DGR would be fine. Rooks seems to be able to make shots out to a mile with his creedmoor. So I guess its acceptable ;)
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 02:00:40 PMUh yup $3500 sounds right....
lol glad we're on the same page
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Quote from: kalindark on June 02, 2015, 02:18:11 PMThe DGR would be fine. Rooks seems to be able to make shots out to a mile with his creedmoor. So I guess its acceptable ;)
yea that sounds reasonable :)
Quote from: dskav on June 02, 2015, 03:40:31 PMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 02:00:40 PMUh yup 00 sounds right....
lol glad we're on the same page
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Quote from: kalindark on June 02, 2015, 02:18:11 PMThe DGR would be fine. Rooks seems to be able to make shots out to a mile with his creedmoor. So I guess its acceptable ;)
yea that sounds reasonable :)
Plus glass... Big boy toys.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 05:12:52 PMPlus glass... Big boy toys.
roger that. seeing as this is my first one tho I think I'll try to save a grand or so on the rig and spend it on ammo/reloading supplies so I can practice, otherwise I won't be good enough to make a $3500 (or more) gun worth it. then maybe down the road a little once I can justify it, I'll spend big boy money on the next one
It's all about what your good with a what the budget is.
You can have a damn fine rifle out of the box, I've had factory bolts clover leaf (sub 1/2 MOA @ 100 with the right hand loads.
You can get a good factory bolt and upgrade (need be with either a prefit or fitted blank)
You can buy a just a factory action e.g. Savage or Rem. then customize with barrel of your choice, trigger, stock...
You can buy a barreled action and better aftermarket stock and bed it....
You can go full on and have one built from scratch with all select aftermarket Tid-bits...
They will all shoot.
They will all help you hone your skills and help you decide on how far you want to go or not go. It's all good.
Having all the choices is a very good thing. I applaud you having the gumption to come on here and ask the questions and be open minded enough to listen to all the advice and process it I'm sure you have already learned a lot, hopefully it will help you decide on where you'll land with your goals.
This is a really great forum with very experienced members who know their craft, but more than that good guys who typically are always willing to help. Always cool to have another enthusiast log on, welcome aboard! Keep us posted on where your heading.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 06:29:09 PMIt's all about what your good with a what the budget is.
You can have a damn fine rifle out of the box, I've had factory bolts clover leaf (sub 1/2 MOA @ 100 with the right hand loads.
You can get a good factory bolt and upgrade (need be with either a prefit or fitted blank)
You can buy a just a factory action e.g. Savage or Rem. then customize with barrel of your choice, trigger, stock...
You can buy a barreled action and better aftermarket stock and bed it....
You can go full on and have one built from scratch with all select aftermarket Tid-bits...
They will all shoot.
They will all help you hone your skills and help you decide on how far you want to go or not go. It's all good.
Having all the choices is a very good thing. I applaud you having the gumption to come on here and ask the questions and be open minded enough to listen to all the advice and process it I'm sure you have already learned a lot, hopefully it will help you decide on where you'll land with your goals.
This is a really great forum with very experienced members who know their craft, but more than that good guys who typically are always willing to help. Always cool to have another enthusiast log on, welcome aboard! Keep us posted on where your heading.
you nailed it, I couldn't be more pleased with the amount of genuine help provided on this forum. big thanks to you and all others who have provided some wisdom on this thread!! I have definitely learned a lot already.
I'll continue to weigh my options keeping everyone's advice in mind, going to try to let my brain marinade in all this info. I also need to start getting serious about figuring out glass and rings...
Look hard at the APA rings. Jared makes high end parts. His brakes are also top shelf IMHO.
I'm looking real hard at the Kahles 624i glass also.
(Big thanks Matt for the vid and pix this morning, them is some audible clicks! They could blow a good hide! LOL)
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 02, 2015, 07:20:35 PMLook hard at the APA rings. Jared makes high end parts. His brakes are also top shelf IMHO.
I'm looking real hard at the Kahles 624i glass also.
(Big thanks Matt for the vid and pix this morning, them is some audible clicks! They could blow a good hide! LOL)
thanks I'll definitely check those out
It'll cost more than $3500
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of $3500
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Quote from: Aussie65 on June 03, 2015, 06:36:57 AMIt'll cost more than 00
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of 00
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Gun porn! Lol
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 07:24:23 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 03, 2015, 06:36:57 AMIt'll cost more than 00
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of 00
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Gun porn! Lol
lol I know, it's unavoidable eventually so maybe I should stop fighting and just give in now..
Quote from: dskav on June 03, 2015, 02:04:59 PMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 07:24:23 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 03, 2015, 06:36:57 AMIt'll cost more than 00
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of 00
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Gun porn! Lol
lol I know, it's unavoidable eventually so maybe I should stop fighting and just give in now..
HE'S SEEN THE LIGHT!"
Quote from: bsumoba on May 31, 2015, 10:25:22 PMIf you are going to try to do a $2K build with optics, then it will be difficult to go custom. You can do it, but will require a lot of patience to wait for stuff to go on sale. Assuming you are only spending 2K on the rifle and not the optic, I would do this:
Here's what I've got in mind so far for components, which looks like it'll be around the $1700 range:
-Savage Target Action - I chose this because I've read good things about Savage, as well as the Accutrigger, and I like the fact that I don't need to go to a 'smith for barrel install, etc.
Instead of a savage action, I would go with a Remington 700 pattern action. You can go with a Stiller Tac30 action. Comes with a pinned recoil lug and a 20 MOA base. - $1005
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97_98&product_id=209
-Shilen Select Match Barrel - read some pretty good things about these barrels
I would go with a Remage barrel setup with a barrel nut. No smithing needed: http://northlandshooterssupply.com/match-grade-barrels/criterion-remington-barrels/
26″ – Stainless Match – Rem/Age – Varmint – 6.5 Creedmoor – 8 Twist – $328.00
-XLR Element Chassis - seems to be fairly lightweight, customizable, and performs well. not sure if this would be a good option though for taking it hunting. I also think I read that a chassis system like this eliminates the need for bedding, is that true?
Yes, this does not require bedding. It is a V-block style mounting system. I like this chassis, but cost is a little much for the budget. I would go with this: https://www.magpul.com/products/hunter-700-stock-%E2%80%93-remington%C2%AE-700-short-action - $259
-20MOA base, maybe nightforce? Not needed as it comes with the Stiller action
You will need a trigger and I would go with a Timney Calvin Elite or Jewell trigger - If you are hunting, then maybe the Timney - $170
This leaves you with about 200 bucks. Not bad egh? ::) :P
I would do this exactly, best bank for the buck. If you want to single load look at the Stiller P1000.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 03:59:48 PMQuote from: dskav on June 03, 2015, 02:04:59 PMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 07:24:23 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 03, 2015, 06:36:57 AMIt'll cost more than 00
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of 00
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Gun porn! Lol
lol I know, it's unavoidable eventually so maybe I should stop fighting and just give in now..
HE'S SEEN THE LIGHT!"
haha I've still got to work on convincing the budget committee...
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Quote from: ScottYo on June 04, 2015, 12:42:17 AMI would do this exactly, best bank for the buck. If you want to single load look at the Stiller P1000.
thanks for the input Scott, I'm currently leaning towards a setup not far from that only using the Shilen DGR which from what I understand is the same as the Stiller Tac30 only it comes with a floating bolt head and barrel nut, and is a bit cheaper at $950. doesn't seem like there's a ton of info on the DGR but if anyone has a good reason to go one way or the other I'd love to hear it
Try this link out if you haven't already. :)
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/11/best-bolt-actions-what-the-pros-use/
Quote from: Rooks on June 04, 2015, 07:07:35 AMTry this link out if you haven't already. :)
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/11/best-bolt-actions-what-the-pros-use/
Matt you just handed the guy Pandora's box. There goes the budget.....LMAO
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 04, 2015, 07:45:01 AMQuote from: Rooks on June 04, 2015, 07:07:35 AMTry this link out if you haven't already. :)
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/11/11/best-bolt-actions-what-the-pros-use/
Matt you just handed the guy Pandora's box. There goes the budget.....LMAO
dammit. lol
realistically though with my current skill level I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between any of the actions on that list. plus if I get the Shilen/Stiller now, I'll have an excuse lined up to build the next one! ;)
Quote from: dskav on June 04, 2015, 02:00:50 AMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 03:59:48 PMQuote from: dskav on June 03, 2015, 02:04:59 PMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 03, 2015, 07:24:23 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 03, 2015, 06:36:57 AMIt'll cost more than 00
This is highly addictive so could be multiple lots of 00
The shopping is a journey in itself.
Good luck bud
Gun porn! Lol
lol I know, it's unavoidable eventually so maybe I should stop fighting and just give in now..
HE'S SEEN THE LIGHT!"
haha I've still got to work on convincing the budget committee...
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Quote from: ScottYo on June 04, 2015, 12:42:17 AMI would do this exactly, best bank for the buck. If you want to single load look at the Stiller P1000.
thanks for the input Scott, I'm currently leaning towards a setup not far from that only using the Shilen DGR which from what I understand is the same as the Stiller Tac30 only it comes with a floating bolt head and barrel nut, and is a bit cheaper at $950. doesn't seem like there's a ton of info on the DGR but if anyone has a good reason to go one way or the other I'd love to hear it
Stiller makes the actions for Shilen. Either way, I think you will have the same quality. Give Stiller a call 972-429-5000 they will naw your ear off for as long as you can stand it, I think the guys name is Doug or Mike or... He will try to talk you into a 6mm Dasher though.
The for the price they are about the best deal around. However if you bump it up another 300-400 Bat and Defiance makes actions blow minds.
Quote from: ScottYo on June 04, 2015, 11:26:55 AMStiller makes the actions for Shilen. Either way, I think you will have the same quality. Give Stiller a call 972-429-5000 they will naw your ear off for as long as you can stand it, I think the guys name is Doug or Mike or... He will try to talk you into a 6mm Dasher though.
The for the price they are about the best deal around. However if you bump it up another 300-400 Bat and Defiance makes actions blow minds.
well if I end up going that route it looks like I'll get a Stiller over a Shilen. the Stillers are in stock at some online dealers, while the Shilen will take anywhere from 3-10mo.
Call Accurate Ordnance and pick Rick or Mark's brain about a barreled action. They stock tac30 actions and barrel blanks. You could have a laser quicker than you think.
http://accurateordnance.com/
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 04, 2015, 05:36:58 PMCall Accurate Ordnance and pick Rick or Mark's brain about a barreled action. They stock tac30 actions and barrel blanks. You could have a laser quicker than you think.
http://accurateordnance.com/
thanks I'll try to give them a call tomorrow
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hey guys, I know we already touched on this lightly but as for the chassis vs bedded stock piece - is this all just personal preference, or are there some objective reasons to chose one or the other? my only other rifles are gas guns so I like the fact that a chassis would feel similar I think - however I'm concerned about the weight, and usefulness for hunting
I initially crossed the XLR Element off the list when I looked at the B&C recommended earlier due to the good reviews and solid price - however after looking things over again price is a wash because by the time I add up the stock, karsten cheek piece, cdi bottom metal, and bedding compound/epoxy, the B&C is the same price as the Element (maybe even a touch more).
I understand some people like one or the other, but looking for objective pros/cons - I believe Danbonzo mentioned the bedded stock would have twice the accuracy potential of a chassis (1/2 vs 1/4 moa), is this really true?
I also see XLR made the list here, so I figure they can't be that bad (and one of them pictured is an Element): http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/12/03/custom-rifle-stocks/
Bedding has always tightened up my groups. It takes stress off the action. You can get a 1 rifle bedding kit from Stocky's for about $15 if you buy either a chassis system or conventional stock and THEN find or suspect the accuracy lacking after break in.
I'm a purist when it comes to my bolts so I won't offer up my opinion on which type of stock is better. I just "prefer" conventional variant is all.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 04, 2015, 07:08:16 PMBedding has always tightened up my groups. It takes stress off the action. You can get a 1 rifle bedding kit from Stocky's for about $15 if you buy either a chassis system or conventional stock and THEN find or suspect the accuracy lacking after break in.
I'm a purist when it comes to my bolts so I won't offer up my opinion on which type of stock is better. I just "prefer" conventional variant is all.
fair enough, I can understand that. thanks for your input!
I have a McRee for my creed and an XLR carbon chassis for my 338 LM. Both were direct bolt in and did not require any bedding. Both shoot well and I have not had any issues.
Quote from: dskav on June 04, 2015, 12:24:02 PMwell if I end up going that route it looks like I'll get a Stiller over a Shilen. the Stillers are in stock at some online dealers, while the Shilen will take anywhere from 3-10mo.
Christmas (Non Denomination Holiday for the P_ss__s) will take a wee bit longer. ;)
The Shilen and the Stiller actions are good ones. The Pierce is also a good one [a 700 clone with m16 extractor]
The Kelby atlas is also a 700 clone with some nice features. It uses an extractor much like the Savage/ post 64 Winchester with a blade ejector that is nice.
All four are similar in price so it boils down to what options you want in an action. The Stiller and Pierce are essentially 700 clones with m16 extractors but the Pierce has changed to 18tpi I've heard. The Shilen has a 700 footprint with Savage type floating bolt head and thread pattern.
Most any action will have a lead time attached to it as lots of people are buying actions these days. Stiller will likely have the shortest lead time.
You can get out a little cheaper on the barrel with a Criterion pre-fit for the Savage or Remage barrel nut jobs on the Shilen and Stiller. That will save on having the barrel machined.
If you stick with a 700 clone action, you will enjoy a good choice of aftermarket parts for stocks and bottom metal. The Shilen triggers are good but they do not come with a safety so that is extra unless ordered. Ditto for the Timney.
Quote from: Philbie on June 04, 2015, 10:10:51 PMQuote from: dskav on June 04, 2015, 12:24:02 PMwell if I end up going that route it looks like I'll get a Stiller over a Shilen. the Stillers are in stock at some online dealers, while the Shilen will take anywhere from 3-10mo.
Christmas (Non Denomination Holiday for the P_ss__s) will take a wee bit longer. ;)
haha true, but my birthday is coming up sooner :D
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Quote from: darter on June 04, 2015, 10:20:07 PMThe Shilen and the Stiller actions are good ones. The Pierce is also a good one [a 700 clone with m16 extractor]
The Kelby atlas is also a 700 clone with some nice features. It uses an extractor much like the Savage/ post 64 Winchester with a blade ejector that is nice.
All four are similar in price so it boils down to what options you want in an action. The Stiller and Pierce are essentially 700 clones with m16 extractors but the Pierce has changed to 18tpi I've heard. The Shilen has a 700 footprint with Savage type floating bolt head and thread pattern.
Most any action will have a lead time attached to it as lots of people are buying actions these days. Stiller will likely have the shortest lead time.
You can get out a little cheaper on the barrel with a Criterion pre-fit for the Savage or Remage barrel nut jobs on the Shilen and Stiller. That will save on having the barrel machined.
If you stick with a 700 clone action, you will enjoy a good choice of aftermarket parts for stocks and bottom metal. The Shilen triggers are good but they do not come with a safety so that is extra unless ordered. Ditto for the Timney.
thanks for the advice, I'm trying to figure out which features are need and which are want - which is difficult since this is my first bolt gun haha. either way it will be a learning experience I'm sure.
FWIW Stiller Tac30's look like they're in stock ready to ship here (thanks @bsumoba)
http://bugholes.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97_98&product_id=209
if there's no noticeable difference in performance with the Savage-style barrel system I think I'll go that route since it saves some $$ on barrel machining and whatever other smith fees are involved in having it installed. plus I'm always a fan of DIY
on the trigger aspect, I did see that the Shilen needs a safety but still comes in cheaper by a good amount. the trigger can be had for $70 and the safety kit for $35, vs $170 for the timney calvin elite w/safety (don't think I'll go Jewell since I'd like to take it hunting from time to time). having said that, I bit the bullet and shelled out for a Geissele on one of my gas guns not too long ago and love it, so that's one area I'm not opposed to spending a little more money if it's really that good
+1 on the Geissele, I put a SSA-E in my Colt. AMAZING! I wish they would start making triggers for bolts!
When considering the anatomy of a precision rifle, it's one component I will not skimp on. Clutch imho.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 05, 2015, 01:43:29 AM+1 on the Geissele, I put a SSA-E in my Colt. AMAZING! I wish they would start making triggers for bolts!
When considering the anatomy of a precision rifle, it's one component I will not skimp on. Clutch imho.
yep the SSA-E is the same one I got, fantastic trigger. still haven't figured out how to pronounce the name properly tho lol
Guys-Lee
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 05, 2015, 04:40:17 AMGuys-Lee
learned something new today :)
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another option came up as I've been doing some more research and I wanted to see what y'all think of it.
I have read some very positive reviews of the Tikka T3 action, even some that say they like it more than a custom 700-based action. what do you guys think of putting a bartlein barrell on the T3 action? of course a new stock would be in order as well.
I could pick up a T3 for $500-600, barrel for $340, and might be able to get a few bucks back on the factory barrel. not too sure what it would cost to have the new barrel finished and installed though.
$300-350 to set a barrel. If you go Tikka action you are stuck with that bolt. I would stick with a Rem action or clone or a Savage to build off, more aftermarket options.
But the Tikka's shoot lights out from the factory., if I was to buy one I wouldn't chop it up. I would just scope and run it.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 10, 2015, 09:23:05 AM$300-350 to set a barrel. If you go Tikka action you are stuck with that bolt. I would stick with a Rem action or clone or a Savage to build off, more aftermarket options.
But the Tikka's shoot lights out from the factory., if I was to buy one I wouldn't chop it up. I would just scope and run it.
interesting, thanks. I'm curious since you said I'd be stuck w/that bolt - is there something wrong w/the Tikka bolt?
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also looks like the T3 is available in 260, do you think it'd be possible to simply have it rechambered to 6.5CM for a reasonable expense?
bix makes trigger for the tikka as well!
Quote from: dskav on June 10, 2015, 03:14:38 PMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 10, 2015, 09:23:05 AM$300-350 to set a barrel. If you go Tikka action you are stuck with that bolt. I would stick with a Rem action or clone or a Savage to build off, more aftermarket options.
But the Tikka's shoot lights out from the factory., if I was to buy one I wouldn't chop it up. I would just scope and run it.
interesting, thanks. I'm curious since you said I'd be stuck w/that bolt - is there something wrong w/the Tikka bolt?
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also looks like the T3 is available in 260, do you think it'd be possible to simply have it rechambered to 6.5CM for a reasonable expense?
after a bit more research i agree with you. for this build I'll stick w/a 700 clone for all the options. mayben when it's time for a dedicated hunting rifle I'll come back to the Tikka.
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the other action that has caught my eye is the Kelbly Atlas Tactical. looks just as good if not better than the Tac30 and more or less the same price
Both my builds went into Manners stocks with mini chassis.
One is a heavy target rifle the other a hunter with a BDL mini chassis which allows you to fit the standard Remington floor plate style magazine or equivalent.
Both these guns shot exceptionally well right from the get go.
Minor relieving required in certain spots prior to final fitting, but nothing major.
The mini chassis is a great thing IMO you get the precision machining & secured action without the weight of a full chassis.
Another option to consider.
Kalindark steered me into Manners & I'm glad he did. No regrets whatsoever.
Quote from: Aussie65 on June 11, 2015, 03:56:57 AMBoth my builds went into Manners stocks with mini chassis.
One is a heavy target rifle the other a hunter with a BDL mini chassis which allows you to fit the standard Remington floor plate style magazine or equivalent.
Both these guns shot exceptionally well right from the get go.
Minor relieving required in certain spots prior to final fitting, but nothing major.
The mini chassis is a great thing IMO you get the precision machining & secured action without the weight of a full chassis.
Another option to consider.
Kalindark steered me into Manners & I'm glad he did. No regrets whatsoever.
My long awaited T4A finally arrived. My new build is going forward this week!!!!! Now comes the stressful part.....choosing glass ::) lol
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 11, 2015, 04:50:03 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 11, 2015, 03:56:57 AMBoth my builds went into Manners stocks with mini chassis.
One is a heavy target rifle the other a hunter with a BDL mini chassis which allows you to fit the standard Remington floor plate style magazine or equivalent.
Both these guns shot exceptionally well right from the get go.
Minor relieving required in certain spots prior to final fitting, but nothing major.
The mini chassis is a great thing IMO you get the precision machining & secured action without the weight of a full chassis.
Another option to consider.
Kalindark steered me into Manners & I'm glad he did. No regrets whatsoever.
My long awaited T4A finally arrived. My new build is going forward this week!!!!! Now comes the stressful part.....choosing glass ::) lol
Nice.
I'd love to get a Razor Gen 2 on top of my heavy gun.
for somebody looking for an excellent hunting rifle, thats beautiful, well built, fast cycling, and light weight a guy on accurate shooter has a browning x-bolt in 300wsm for less than 600.00
not a custom rifle but a fine fine hunter.
Quote from: Aussie65 on June 11, 2015, 05:01:53 AMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 11, 2015, 04:50:03 AMQuote from: Aussie65 on June 11, 2015, 03:56:57 AMBoth my builds went into Manners stocks with mini chassis.
One is a heavy target rifle the other a hunter with a BDL mini chassis which allows you to fit the standard Remington floor plate style magazine or equivalent.
Both these guns shot exceptionally well right from the get go.
Minor relieving required in certain spots prior to final fitting, but nothing major.
The mini chassis is a great thing IMO you get the precision machining & secured action without the weight of a full chassis.
Another option to consider.
Kalindark steered me into Manners & I'm glad he did. No regrets whatsoever.
My long awaited T4A finally arrived. My new build is going forward this week!!!!! Now comes the stressful part.....choosing glass ::) lol
Nice.
I'd love to get a Razor Gen 2 on top of my heavy gun.
Nice scope...now if they only offered it in matte black..
Not to derail your thread dskav! This is at the top of my list http://www.kahles.at/kahles-united-states-of-america-usa/products/k624i/k624i/
They are a nice thing too, hard to go wrong with Kahles.
Eric has one of these he could give you the run down on how he likes it.
Rooks is putting one thru its paces now. He said the thing kicks ass.
What are they worth over there?
Latest Gen. around $2990
Older models on sale for $2k-$2700.
I have the Kahles K 624 TT which is a different scope. Its a target scope and I love it. The K624 I was one of 2 scopes that had a prefect mechanical function test in a scope test of all pricy scopes.
It is the pick of the litter.
I am lusting for the K 1050 10-50 x 56 long range target scope.
Eric
http://www.kahles.at/eng/products/competition-k/model-overview/
Here is my 624i on my 338LM. Kalindark and I compared it side by side to his S&B 3-27. It's gave the bender a run for it's money, especially for the price.
[media id=1203 type=full align=center caption="image"]
[media id=1204 type=preview align=center caption="image"][media id=1205 type=full align=center caption="image"]
My homemade tracking test. It tracked perfect to 10mils. Need to make a bigger one to test the full 26mils.
Btw, When zoomed to 24x you only see the 2.5mil line mark on the reticle
I'm starting to wrap my head around that Mil 6 reticle.
[media id=1206 type=full align=center caption="image"]
Here are the subtensions. It's great for long range shooting, especially with the center being .05 mil in size. I wouldn't use it for PRS type shooting but is great for prone/f-class shooting.
MSR K would be my #1 choice in that scope.
I am lusting big time.
Eric
http://www.kahles.at/fileadmin/kahles/Downloads/pdf_int/KAHLESUSA_Infosheet_K1050.jpg
Quote from: eas1949 on June 11, 2015, 10:45:44 AMI am lusting big time.
Eric
http://www.kahles.at/fileadmin/kahles/Downloads/pdf_int/KAHLESUSA_Infosheet_K1050.jpg
And 1/8 moa
Precise!
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 11, 2015, 11:43:01 AMQuote from: eas1949 on June 11, 2015, 10:45:44 AMI am lusting big time.
Eric
http://www.kahles.at/fileadmin/kahles/Downloads/pdf_int/KAHLESUSA_Infosheet_K1050.jpg
And 1/8 moa
Precise!
Benchrest yes, tactical no
Exactly, perfect for F class and prairie dawgs with the 6F fine crosshairs.
Eric
Quote from: Rooks on June 11, 2015, 11:48:16 AMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 11, 2015, 11:43:01 AMQuote from: eas1949 on June 11, 2015, 10:45:44 AMI am lusting big time.
Eric
http://www.kahles.at/fileadmin/kahles/Downloads/pdf_int/KAHLESUSA_Infosheet_K1050.jpg
And 1/8 moa
Precise!
Benchrest yes, tactical no
Yup but E is a BR guy. He's not running a course w fake knees ;D
Well, I gotta b the.odd guy out. . For get the custom action route and get a Ruger M77 Mk2 VT. Have a Murphy 20 moa canted rail installed with 8×40 screws. Put PTG or other brand DBM on it. Some moderately priced 30 mm rings. With a bubble.level.in them. And a 1K$ or less scope on it. And a 100$ bipod. . Get a good Kestrel weather station and either a good program for your fon or a set of Wiz wheels.
Then take $2,000 and invest in brass, bullets, powder,primers.
Spend 400$ on dies, trimmer,annealer, turner ect.
Then go and wear it all out and use it up learning How to consistently hit a soccer ball at 1k yards.
I guarantee the 800$ Ruger will not be a reason you can't. !!
If you want to spend a bunch.of bucks on something to help your long range shooting. Invest in either a high dollar rifle scope or spotting scope so you can view the wind and mirage better.
There, that's my 2 ¢ worth. ;)
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 11, 2015, 04:32:30 PMWell, I gotta b the.odd guy out. . For get the custom action route and get a Ruger M77 Mk2 VT. Have a Murphy 20 moa canted rail installed with 8×40 screws. Put PTG or other brand DBM on it. Some moderately priced 30 mm rings. With a bubble.level.in them. And a 1K$ or less scope on it. And a 100$ bipod. . Get a good Kestrel weather station and either a good program for your fon or a set of Wiz wheels.
Then take $2,000 and invest in brass, bullets, powder,primers.
Spend 400$ on dies, trimmer,annealer, turner ect.
Then go and wear it all out and use it up learning How to consistently hit a soccer ball at 1k yards.
I guarantee the 800$ Ruger will not be a reason you can't. !!
If you want to spend a bunch.of bucks on something to help your long range shooting. Invest in either a high dollar rifle scope or spotting scope so you can view the wind and mirage better.
There, that's my 2 ¢ worth. ;)
I appreciate the input. Assuming I went the factory route, would you say the Ruger is a better choice than a Savage 12 LRP? (or anything else for that matter)
I think that most of the factory target rifles are good. I like Ruger M77 mkll in their various forms and the VT in particular. From what I have seen on forums and from my own use the M77 mkll is very trouble free so for me that is a great selling point. My primary point is you can dump thousands and thousands of dollars into an UBER rifle scope combo and not get many more hits than a half moa factory rifle with a half decent scope. But unless u have boat loads of $$$$$$ or are going to compete for a title with other fierce competitors . You don't need a high dollar custom rifle. For guys that have Btdt at long range. They know what they want to improve. But few started with uber gear. By the time you wear out a barrel shooting precision long range. You will know more about what you want. But you will know a lot about what only you actually can do.
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The more ammo you shoot in correct practice. And the more practice you get in behind your rifle and scope. The better shot you will be.
Put another way, I could drive the same car Dale Ernhardt does but I sure wouldn't win any races.
Tony competes against guys that dump more money into their rifle, and he beats them. Not because of his rifle but because of his skill.
I could buy and wear a pair of Air Jordan's but I would look like a dufus on a basket ball court. Ect.ect.
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Then there are precision shooting schools like the one Rob instructed at a little bit ago. Now THAT would be a great investment imo. Even if all you had for a rifle was an 800$ factory rifle with a 300$ SWFA scope and a Blackhawk bipod.
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 11, 2015, 07:49:37 PMI think that most of the factory target rifles are good. I like Ruger M77 mkll in their various forms and the VT in particular. From what I have seen on forums and from my own use the M77 mkll is very trouble free so for me that is a great selling point. My primary point is you can dump thousands and thousands of dollars into an UBER rifle scope combo and not get many more hits than a half moa factory rifle with a half decent scope. But unless u have boat loads of $$$$$$ or are going to compete for a title with other fierce competitors . You don't need a high dollar custom rifle. For guys that have Btdt at long range. They know what they want to improve. But few started with uber gear. By the time you wear out a barrel shooting precision long range. You will know more about what you want. But you will know a lot about what only you actually can do.
[mergedate]1434068725[/mergedate]
The more ammo you shoot in correct practice. And the more practice you get in behind your rifle and scope. The better shot you will be.
Put another way, I could drive the same car Dale Ernhardt does but I sure wouldn't win any races.
Tony competes against guys that dump more money into their rifle, and he beats them. Not because of his rifle but because of his skill.
I could buy and wear a pair of Air Jordan's but I would look like a dufus on a basket ball court. Ect.ect.
[mergedate]1434069917[/mergedate]
Then there are precision shooting schools like the one Rob instructed at a little bit ago. Now THAT would be a great investment imo. Even if all you had for a rifle was an 800$ factory rifle with a 300$ SWFA scope and a Blackhawk bipod.
thanks for elaborating, and glad to hear a new perspective. I agree w/the Dale analogy, but that assumes the only goal is to win the race - I'd also just want to really enjoy driving a badass car haha. having said that, I totally agree on not buying an Uber gun, which is why I initially set my goal to try to find somewhat of a happy medium with this build ($1500-2000 gun, ~$1000 glass). I still have a lot to think about, you and the rest of the guys on this forum have been extremely helpful.
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on another note the Kelbly is out, the barrel tenon on it is 18 tpi and the remage setups seem to be 16 tpi
LOL and this is the easy part, wait till you have to choose glass.... Talk about options!!!!
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 07:26:59 AMLOL and this is the easy part, wait till you have to choose glass.... Talk about options!!!!
haha I know, the amount of options is dizzying. so far a few that have piqued my interest, but I know there are many, many others:
Sightron SIII 6-24 FFP
Vortex PST 6-24 FFP
Burris XTR II 5-25
Bushnell DMR 3.5-21
the Burris is pretty new so not a ton of info out there yet on it, but what is available seems pretty promising for the price point
Of those 4. The Bush.
This is a lot of scope for the $, it runs with scopes costing much more. Just saying..
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 10:24:01 AMOf those 4. The Bush.
This is a lot of scope for the $, it runs with scopes costing much more. Just saying..
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
mind sharing your reason for liking the Bush more out of that group? the horus-like reticle?
i'll check out the swfa, one more to add to the list lol
The Burris is the way to go
Quote from: eas1949 on June 12, 2015, 11:05:55 AMThe Burris is the way to go
appreciate the input, would you please elaborate a bit on why your vote is for the Burris?
I have had Burris scopes for the past 30 years and have never had a bad one. The warranty is lifetime and they honor just about anything. The 5-25 is FFP with excellent turrets and zero stop. I would recommend that no matter what scope you purchase you look through it and fiddle with the turrets prior to purchase.
Eric
Quote from: eas1949 on June 12, 2015, 12:58:31 PMI have had Burris scopes for the past 30 years and have never had a bad one. The warranty is lifetime and they honor just about anything. The 5-25 is FFP with excellent turrets and zero stop. I would recommend that no matter what scope you purchase you look through it and fiddle with the turrets prior to purchase.
Eric
thanks!
I started with a C4 burris on my LRP creed and it would not track for anything. sent it in and they sent me another one. the second one would not track either. I sold it and put a vortex, now everything is just little holes!!!!!
Quote from: basshawg42 on June 12, 2015, 01:36:46 PMI started with a C4 burris on my LRP creed and it would not track for anything. sent it in and they sent me another one. the second one would not track either. I sold it and put a vortex, now everything is just little holes!!!!!
what Vortex did you get?
Quote from: dskav on June 12, 2015, 10:57:21 AMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 10:24:01 AMOf those 4. The Bush.
This is a lot of scope for the $, it runs with scopes costing much more. Just saying..
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
mind sharing your reason for liking the Bush more out of that group? the horus-like reticle?
i'll check out the swfa, one more to add to the list lol
Not at all http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/24/best-tactical-scopes-what-the-pros-use/
I have a Burris and am not impressed with it.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 03:49:21 PMQuote from: dskav on June 12, 2015, 10:57:21 AMQuote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 10:24:01 AMOf those 4. The Bush.
This is a lot of scope for the $, it runs with scopes costing much more. Just saying..
http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-HD-5-20x50-Tactical-30mm-Riflescope-P51653.aspx
mind sharing your reason for liking the Bush more out of that group? the horus-like reticle?
i'll check out the swfa, one more to add to the list lol
Not at all http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/24/best-tactical-scopes-what-the-pros-use/
I have a Burris and am not impressed with it.
d'oh, how could I have forgotten about that page?! don't think i've got the budget for that particular model, but that certainly speaks highly of their quality in general.
I've never owned a Burris myself, but have read some less than glowing things about them. Some of the positive reviews of these brand new XTR II's claim that they've done a hell of a lot better this time, but I suppose for that type of $$$ it might be a better idea to stick with a known quantity than being a guinea pig
Buy once, cry once
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 04:01:19 PMBuy once, cry once
I guess it's a little easier to justify a bit more on glass since that can stay even if the rifle goes
I haven't commented on the build as the advice so far has been excellent and haven't thought I could make it any better, but I have the sightron you're talking about and it tracks well has good glass. I have along side some high end scopes costing up 4 times as much the only 2 scopes that you could say defiantly had better glass was S&B and the vortex razor.
The mil hash reticle I love as it is simple uncluttered and easy to use.
For some reason people don't like sightron I don't know why as I've never heard of anyone having problems with them.
In my opinion they are by far the best value for money scopes around.
I know Eric likes them. And I tried to for 2 decades. But I said bye bye to Buying Burris scopes. The Bushnell gets high marks in the Precision Rifle Shooters blog test. . My advice. Put a 10×42 SWFA SS mil quad Classic on it for 300$ and go ahead oner!!
Or buy mine shipped for less than $250 ;D
Its just like Savages or Remingtons. Some people love them and some people hate them. One guys bug holer is the next guy curse from hell.
I believe the Burris XTR II line is a quality scope line. As far as scopes for me go make mine Kahles.
Eric
thanks for the continued advice gents. as for the Kahles, I'm sure it's fantastic but no way I can justify that expense unless I start seriously competing. and I'm sure the SWFA 10x42 is a solid performer for the $ but I'm really not a fan of fixed magnification for the various ranges I'll be shooting at
Unless your shooting running coyotes at close range well under 100 yards. You would be surprised how useful a fixed 6 or 10 power scope is. Even at 1k yards.
I bought the vortex viper 6-24x50 HST with the VMR reticle in MOA and I love it
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 12, 2015, 09:23:06 PMUnless your shooting running coyotes at close range well under 100 yards. You would be surprised how useful a fixed 6 or 10 power scope is. Even at 1k yards.
Truth
I'm only running a 1-6 scope on my main rifle I use for hunting.
Have now made kill shots to 450yards with it & have been making hits on steel out to 500 at Peelwood quite easily
The 1-6 mag range really is super versatile. Would love a 1-8 or even 10 for those longer shots but the scopes get really pricey once you get into that mag range.
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 12, 2015, 04:50:55 PMOr buy mine shipped for less than 0 ;D
Yes. This is an unbelievable value. Sorry I spaced it.
well glass is no longer an issue. got a deal i couldn't pass up on the burris xtr II 5-25. couldn't say no to a $1200 scope for $800. if i don't end up liking it I'm sure I can sell it for near what i paid for it (if not better).
Yup, that sounds like a very good deal. What r the particulars? Reticle, turrets, plane? 30 or 34 mm tube?
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 14, 2015, 04:04:08 AMYup, that sounds like a very good deal. What r the particulars? Reticle, turrets, plane? 30 or 34 mm tube?
FFP, 34mm tube. i would have liked the SCR reticle but the deal was for the G2B reticle (pretty plain mil dot), which I've read gets a little fat at higher magnification but we'll see. total elevation adjustment is 90 MOA (per the stat sheet). i believe it is 8 mils per rotation. the reviews look promising, but I'll have to wait until I have the rest of the rifle to see how it really performs haha
reviews are fairly limited on this new scope but seems like it tracks very well and has pretty good glass from what the available reviews thus far claim
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rings look a bit limited for the 34mm tube but the Seekins look solid
Are you going to put a 20 moa rail on the rifle? If everything comes out equal. You should be zeroed@100 and still have 45 moa of dial. Which could short you a little maybe if you dial for Coriolis or spin drift And wind @ say 1,100 y/m. With a 20 moa rail you would prolly be fine all the time.
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 14, 2015, 04:31:24 AMAre you going to put a 20 moa rail on the rifle? If everything comes out equal. You should be zeroed@100 and still have 45 moa of dial. Which could short you a little maybe if you dial for Coriolis or spin drift And wind @ say 1,100 y/m. With a 20 moa rail you would prolly be fine all the time.
I do plan on putting a 20moa rail on it. I don't see much of a downside (price or otherwise) of using a 20moa vs a 0moa rail so might as well
Burris just came out with 34 mm Signature rings with the inserts. Take a look at them on their website.
Good choice on the scope.
Eric
Come up won't be a problem, at 1000yd I doubt you'd be in the 2nd rev w a 0" MOA base. With a 58mm obj. a 20 MOA will only help w clearance and low-med rings.
What matters most (IMHO) is matching reticle/turrets. This is where the stadia on a FFP shines, at any power level, read your mils, dial in correction and bang.
For BR most guys prefer 2nd FFP because the cross-hairs will stay thin.
One of my new discoveries with my.rifle is I.need a bubble level on it. I like the NF rings with the bubble level top cap on the rear ring. But I need to put a rail.on so I can use Picatinny base rings.
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on June 14, 2015, 01:36:49 PMOne of my new discoveries with my.rifle is I.need a bubble level on it. I like the NF rings with the bubble level top cap on the rear ring. But I need to put a rail.on so I can use Picatinny base rings.
I like this concept if running a 1913 rail. Lay it back flush when not in use/or needed,, and has a cap to protect vial. Also can be easily used on multiple platforms.
http://www.usoptics.com/accessories-gear/accessories/anti-cant-devices/rail-mounted-swivel-acd.html
those XTR Signature rings do look nifty. I guess a general question on rings: as long as I get a quality set, does it really matter much which ones I go with?
watch this video.
Eric
! No longer available (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcRAX5OLtJE#)
Imo, no! Some are real expensive, some are basic. But if they are well made and properly installed. Most all of them will hold the scope in place. Which is the job of scope rings and bases.
thanks for the video, very helpful. considering the reasonable price I think I'm sold - not sure what height I'll need but I can figure that out later. now I just need to decide on the rest of the rifle haha.
switching gears here: I think I'll try to run AI AW mags with my setup, unless anyone has a good reason to stick with AICS instead?
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I decided to pull the trigger today on a Stiller Tac 30 A/W. Still need to order the rest of the pieces.
I seriously doubt you'll need correction rings for a Stiller TAC30 action. That action just reeks "Tactical", the signature rings tip the scales towards hunting rig IMHO is all.
Question what Barrel contour do you see yourself going with?
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 19, 2015, 07:57:56 PMI seriously doubt you'll need correction rings for a Stiller TAC30 action. That action just reeks "Tactical", the signature rings tip the scales towards hunting rig IMHO is all.
Question what Barrel contour do you see yourself going with?
the original signature rings are definitely geared towards hunting, but they just came out with the XTR signature rings (xtreme tactical riflescope) that fit the intended use of the rifle much better. i'm honestly mostly a fan of the fact that they won't leave any marks on the scope itself. they also seem to be just a tad cheaper than some of the other options out there (badger, seekins, etc.)
http://www.sinclairintl.com/optics/rings-bases/scope-rings/xtr-signature-rings-prod78712.aspx
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leaning towards a varmint contour barrel
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also I just received the scope in the mail, obviously nothing to mount it to but so far I'm impressed overall. turrets are crisp and audible, glass seems pretty solid as well. it sure as hell isn't going to win any awards for being compact tho haha, especially with the sunshade attached.
dskav I just checked out those xtr rings. Those definitely will not clash with your tactical theme! They look like Seekin clones. Let us know how the fit and finish are when you get a set!
Quote from: Danbonzo on June 21, 2015, 07:59:48 PMdskav I just checked out those xtr rings. Those definitely will not clash with your tactical theme! They look like Seekin clones. Let us know how the fit and finish are when you get a set!
will do! if it's on par with the fit&finish of the scope i'll be pleased. might be a while since they seem to be on pre-order only at the moment - no rush tho i suppose, barrels are looking like a decent lead time as well. unfortunately patience is typically not my strong suit...
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anybody have experience with a CG Mod 22 trigger? I'm a fan of 2-stage triggers but it's pretty darn pricey
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happy birthday to me (a day early) ;D
[media id=1239 type=preview align=center caption="A3 edge"]
McM A3 Edge with M5 bottom metal. Got a pretty good deal on it that put it right about what I was prepared to spend on a chassis, and this looks a lot better and will save me almost 2lbs. on the overall weight. I'm sure the balance of the rifle will be pretty far forward with such a light stock, but figured it was worth a shot, we'll see how bad it is.
Looks great ! You can change the balance with some lead in the butt. So you have the optics and the stock . your hiking right along. I believe that Bullets.com has Bartlien barrels in stock . .264,1 in 8 " twist. Different contours.
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on July 09, 2015, 03:13:53 AMLooks great ! You can change the balance with some lead in the butt. So you have the optics and the stock . your hiking right along. I believe that Bullets.com has Bartlien barrels in stock . .264,1 in 8 " twist. Different contours.
+1 for glenn's post
bartlein is a top choice for barrel's , gonna be a nice rifle when the smoke clears.
thanks guys. i've read a lot of great reviews on the bartleins, however my question is whether or not it's worth essentially twice a criterion remage barrel? the barrels themselves are in the $350 area each, but the bartlein would take another maybe $300 to have a smith finish and install the barrel. i hope that doesn't sound presumptuous, i'm genuinely curious.
IF YOUR SERIOUS ABOUT ACCURACY, ITS WORTH EVERY PENNY.
you get what you pay for! they're simply isnt anything as close except a kreiger. they are single cut grooves ,hand lapped and air guaged. you can buy a cheaper barrel , but not a better barrel.
almost any aftermarket barrel will outperform a factory barrell, but its a small investment for what you get in the end.
you dont have to take my word, look for yourself on the i.b.s. website to see what the best 1000 yd shooters in the WORLD shoot....some of these shooters money is no option ,they can buy anything they could ever dream of with no problem and ALOT (not all) use bartlein, theyre just that consistant and good.
you didnt ask but in my opinion the top 3 barrels are
bartlein
kreiger
broughton
Everybody has theyre own choice and likes and thats ok, if we all liked the same thing it would be impossible to get.
Go to your gunsmith and flip him a $50.00 Gold coin he'll build you a real nice gun because 3500.00 obama dollars might buy you a $50.00 dollar double eagle, you know real money.
thanks swamp. if i go w/the bartlein, any advice on what contour? the stock is inlet for varmint/sendero, and looks like bugholes has the Lt. Bull Sporter (3b) and M24 contours available in stock in 27" 5R. they both end at .9" but the M24 is a whopping 6.2lbs. compared to 4.0lbs. for the 3b.
m 24 in 5r 1:8 twist would be a fine choice. you wont be disappointed.
not to heavy to carry, very stable , easy to clean and all around great choice.
misread the chard, the 3b definitely doesn't finish at .9", it's .7" woops.
would an M24 work in this stock you think? it's inletted for varmint/sendero
should fit like a glove.
well guys, good news and bad news. good news is the Stiller Tac 30 is in my posession now. bad news is i'm less than impressed with the bolt. lots of tool marks and the supposedly badass "black iron nitride QPQ" finish has noticeable wear (see pics below).
now this is my first bolt gun so by all means correct me if my expectations are too high, but for a $1k action i expected higher quality than this.
the other question i'd have for you guys is if you think this is all cosmetic or anything more serious?
thanks in advance for your help. ps sorry for the picture overload
[media id=1259 type=preview align=center caption="tac30bolt1"]
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as far as performance is concerned i dont think youll ever see a difference BUT.... i appears that it was handled quiet a bit by folks working the bolt and action back and forth checking out how smooth it is OR its just piss poor quality control !!!!
either way for 1000.00 of hard saved money there aint no way in hell i would put up with it !!!!!!!!!
they would have to make it good or i would go ballistic on there ass.
now im not telling you to take my advice cause i might make a bad situation worse but this is what I WOULD DO.
i cant believe they let it go to a paying customer as "new" looking that way.
its kinda like eating with your eyes, if it looks good it will taste good. i hope that when you send them the pics they dont try some b.s. and say it didnt leave the factory like that and you skinned it up . that would REALLY TICK ME OFF. almost looks like everything else...made in china.
note to self: never use stiller
I don't own any bolt gun that doesn't exhibit wear marks. The tolererance for Stiller on the bolt to body fit are typically .004". That is completely normal for a coating to wear especially at the lug interfaces. For it to fit so well that it's removing microns of coating, that I my eyes is a plus because it usually translated to consistent accuracy.
This is from a TAC 30 and I haven't even bedded yet..x5@100- 6.5cm [media id=1273 type=preview align=center caption="image"]
If you want pretty then return it and buy a Win. Super Grade.
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I just put my glasses on. Mine does NOT have those gouge marks at all. I'd be returning that one and they should make that right for you.
But the black iron oxide coating going thin is to be expected.
appreciate the responses guys. i'm not as concerned about the finish wear as I am the machining marks. i suck at taking pictures but trust me in person they are all very visible to the naked eye. as for the finish, i knew it would wear eventually, but I haven't even put a single shot thru the gun yet, just worked the action a few times.
i shouldn't have to send the whole action back would i? i'd much prefer to just have them send me a new bolt (and no i haven't heard back from them as i just emailed late friday)
Did you buy direct from Stiller? Don't know how they'll want to handle it but i think they lap the bolts to the actions.
Quote from: Danbonzo on July 26, 2015, 07:42:55 PMDid you buy direct from Stiller? Don't know how they'll want to handle it but i think they lap the bolts to the actions.
bought it thru bugholes
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response from stiller: "Those are part of the bolt machining process and do not affect the performance of the rifle. 'Fixing' them would increase the cost of the action significantly. We strive for a balance between consistency on the critical bearing surfaces, finish and cost."
???
Let the games begin!!!.......
Then why does my Stiller bolt NOT have them? Did I pay significantly more and not know it?
Since they [Stiller] came back with such a sterile response using the function over form debate it sounds like you have a choice to make. I see this 3 ways
a) live with it and accept its cosmetic and will in all reality not affect the performance of said action.
b) go to war with Stiller
c) return it to Bugholes
What sucks the most, this is supposed to be a pleasurable endeavor/experience that you are taking on and this is how it's begun out of the gate. Yup,, it's always something! Feel for you on this one man
I am really sorry for your troubles. Stiller makes a good product but things happen.
Have you talked directly with Russ at Stiller? If you haven't I would call and talk with him. There is no need to get lathered up. At least not yet anyway. Perhaps send some hi-rez pics and if he requests just send the bolt back in for inspection. Their actions are so close that bolts should be interchangeable. My opinion only.
As far as the finish goes. I had some of it rubbed off the first day I had mine just playing with it. Anything that is coated will exhibit more wear than something that is not, but all things show wear with use. Another one of my opinions.
They make over 900 actions a year. It is not hard to believe that one would come out with cosmetic problems. They still make a good action at a very competitive price. They are nice people and are trying to make a good product at a competitive price.
Good Luck,
Joe
I wouldn't live with it is all I'll add.
thanks for the advice fellas. i'm more likely to suck it up than send back the whole action, just because i don't want to go thru the hassle and added time/money to replace it.
i know they're trying to keep costs down, but damn - i've seen MUCH cheaper guns that don't look like that. to me it's like selling a brand new car with a smashed rear bumper and then telling me it's ok cuz the car is cheap. come on..
btw i did send them hi-res pics along with my email, and the response i received is from Russ so not sure how likely he is to change his mind if i call
F that! Get something else if that's the position they want to take. Lots of choices out there. Why settle on something you clearly aren't satisfied with?
I would sure take the time to call him and make him tell me to my face if I was that dissatisfied about it. After all you did spend the money for a custom. You deserve to get what you want. It would be worth the wait to get what you want even if you have to sell it and order another make of action.
Joe
called Russ up and had a chat, the best I could get was "send in the action and we'll look at it"
here's to hoping spending the time and $ to send it back pays off...
I really hope you get a satisfactory result. Best of luck!
Quote from: Danbonzo on July 28, 2015, 10:10:26 AMI wouldn't live with it is all I'll add.
i think i said basically the same thing on the first day of the thread- I WOULD RAISE IMMORTAL HELL, for 1000.00 you can expect alot better from defiance ... that i can PROMISE YOU. take it back and get a defiance. you wont regret that one at all. ask aussie, ( on here) talked him into 2 of them and he LOVES them.
The Defiance are nice.
Will always save the extra for one
Stiller are around $1500-1600 here
Defiance are around $2400-$2500
From the Defiance US pricing on their website they ask $1330 over there.
If the Stiller was a $1000 & the Defiance was $1330 it's a no brainer.
The quality, more options for not a lot more.
Better resale too if you go that way.
Good luck which ever way you go.
Slow down guys. The Stillers are fine actions, don't misconstrue this into their actions are piss poor quality because the guy got an ugly duckling. That it slipped past QC is what has me scratching my head. Who knows? It happens! My wizards (slash- brain-trusts) do dumb $h!t ocaisionally that I end up paying for. Point is I pay for it, what happens next will expose the true nature of the co. and the people who run it. STAND BEHIND YOUR PRODUCT if you don't it means you don't believe in it yourself, so don't expect the consumer to. News travels really fast nowadays via cyberspace on these forums. I think most of the parties involved, i.e., manufacturers are savvy to that fact, it would behoove Stiller not to be penny wise pound foolish over a marked up $300 bolt. Who cares how it happened just make it right and take care of your paying customer. It will pay you back in spades because reputation has just as much to do with what you're selling as does the goods you peddle....... in my book at least.
ideally i think i'd agree with the sentiments here, i've now run into this on two different guns - trying to get a "value option" gets you nothing (loooong story on the other one but long story short, don't buy a CZ Redhead O/U). i'm now convinced on either buying cheap and accepting what you get, or pay top dollar for guaranteed quality. lesson learned i suppose.
i'm hopefull Russ comes thru like others have suggested he might, but either way i'm still not happy having to send it back. the issue i face now is that i have a stock inletted for a 700, which the Tac30 fits perfectly - i don't think a defiance will. any other recommendations that should fit a 700 inlet? maybe a Surgeon?
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I'm onboard w/Dan tho, I'm hopeful that Stiller will make good on this one and all will be good in the end. I'm forgiving of errors, so long as the company is willing to step up and fix it. we shall see tho..
Don't get me wrong. I am not bashing Stiller.
I think an action with an integral lug & rail is a big plus. The exceptional tolerances are a bonus on top.
Those things are worth the extra to me.
Don't worry about your stock.
Both my Manners were listed as Rem 700 inlet but the minor bolt handle relief & bolt release cut out are a sinch to do yourself.
Their stock material is very easy to work with hand tools.
Over to you bud.
Quote from: Danbonzo on July 28, 2015, 07:50:11 PMSlow down guys. The Stillers are fine actions, don't misconstrue this into their actions are piss poor quality because the guy got an ugly duckling. That it slipped past QC is what has me scratching my head. Who knows? It happens! My wizards (slash- brain-trusts) do dumb $h!t ocaisionally that I end up paying for. Point is I pay for it, what happens next will expose the true nature of the co. and the people who run it. STAND BEHIND YOUR PRODUCT if you don't it means you don't believe in it yourself, so don't expect the consumer to. News travels really fast nowadays via cyberspace on these forums. I think most of the parties involved, i.e., manufacturers are savvy to that fact, it would behoove Stiller not to be penny wise pound foolish over a marked up 0 bolt. Who cares how it happened just make it right and take care of your paying customer. It will pay you back in spades because reputation has just as much to do with what you're selling as does the goods you peddle....... in my book at least.
very well put sir.
i agree, and being a very reputable action manufactor i would hope they make it right. and i goes to show that we are still human and make mistakes which is understandable, and i dont expect everybody to agree with MY thoughts, it would really UPSET ( or piss me off) if i were the one with the ugly duckling. from there first response back to him im not sure what they will do, hopefully keep a customer happy. it will shoot just fine and knicks and bruises will happen but i sure dont want a bruised one to start with.time will tell.....
I could be wrong so don't kill me for it but I think the bolts are made for Stiller by PTG. I think they get them unfinished and do the complete machining on them in house. The helix for the cams is done ect. They are one piece and the bolt is integral. Not welded or soldered. They really are pretty good especially for the money. Not a lot of other manufacturers are doing that. If you brake one off you are going to be in the hospital.
All the parts are sent out in batches to be nitride and that is where they can get into bottlenecks. They have to wait and everyone else does too. They just take the heat for it.
They are not a really large shop but they have really good quality machines well maintained and some top quality people working for them. With the government contracts and industry stuff they put out a lot of actions a year. It is not inconceivable that they would have a blemish every now and then.
I feel bad for you and them as I am sure they would rather have good press than bad.
Joe
i'm starting to think i'm cursed, or maybe just this build. ups screwed up real good shipping it back so it still hasn't gotten back to stiller and won't until next week. not much of an update, but everyone knows complaining helps make things better ;)
Dude I know the feeling! hang in there I have a gut feeling they will make it right.
hope it works out in a positive way for you.
if the bolts are ptg they are a really good bolt. have bought several bolt bodies over the yrs and had fluted and was really happy with them.
i just MIGHT bite the bullet and get the MONSTER -BAT MODEL L , big nasty, strong and BEAUTIFUL for the heavy gun. have to see how much money i can sneak back without getting a divorce haha
^ that is some funny $h!t right there. Lol
funny maybe..... but TRUE !!!!! HAHAHA ;D
"cheaper to keep her"
Quote from: swampthang on August 08, 2015, 01:41:45 PMfunny maybe..... but TRUE !!!!! HAHAHA ;D
"cheaper to keep her"
I feel you Tony lol
Lol good luck swamp
oh its TOTALLLLY OK,
Jerry- jvw 2008 knows first hand that i have one of the best god given wives on earth. she supports me with anything i do. many times it was her that helped me get everything ready to go to a match outta state. it was her that spent our 25th wedding anniversary with the contractor remodeling our house while i was in kansas doing what i love to do, guide turkey hunts. and it will be her to help me finish the heavy gun build.
i do "rat hole " some money from time to time but i really dont need to, i think its me just being greedy.
as for the original post, by now i hope that he has got the satisfaction that he was looking for .
a major manufactor like them hopefully it wont be a negative review.
i do "rat hole " some money from time to time but i really dont need to, i think its me just being greedy.
Me too
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checked the tracking and looks like the action was delivered to Stiller today, so hopefully I'll hear from them soon. fingers crossed
Hope they pony up and make it right. They really are fine actions. Very pleased w mine. Good luck
finally got a response, looks like this story may have a happy ending.
"That is an ugly bolt - we usually have a few machining marks. I am going to send you a replacement out today."
I wish it hadn't taken 4 days for them to simply look at the bolt, but at least they are going to fix it so I'll take it
Had a feeling they'd honor it. They are solid actions. Great that you can move forward feeling pleased about building your rig around one that's also aesthetically pleasing to you.
got the action back from stiller today, and it was a bit of a double-edged sword. they ended up just sending me a complete new action (which has a bolt that's in much better shape), which i think is awesome from a customer service standpoint. unfortunately since it's a new serial no., i have to turn it in to my ffl, pay to register it, and wait another 11 days - which happens to line up nicely for the first day of my business trip that will have me out of state until the second week of september.
oh well, first world problems i guess
Quote from: dskav on August 19, 2015, 03:38:08 PMgot the action back from stiller today, and it was a bit of a double-edged sword. they ended up just sending me a complete new action (which has a bolt that's in much better shape), which i think is awesome from a customer service standpoint. unfortunately since it's a new serial no., i have to turn it in to my ffl, pay to register it, and wait another 11 days - which happens to line up nicely for the first day of my business trip that will have me out of state until the second week of september.
oh well, first world problems i guess
Sorry, but that made me laugh out loud. Careful what you wish for.....
Hey Kudos to Stiller for stepping up and making it right!
Quote from: Danbonzo on August 22, 2015, 06:37:35 AMQuote from: dskav on August 19, 2015, 03:38:08 PMgot the action back from stiller today, and it was a bit of a double-edged sword. they ended up just sending me a complete new action (which has a bolt that's in much better shape), which i think is awesome from a customer service standpoint. unfortunately since it's a new serial no., i have to turn it in to my ffl, pay to register it, and wait another 11 days - which happens to line up nicely for the first day of my business trip that will have me out of state until the second week of september.
oh well, first world problems i guess
Sorry, but that made me laugh out loud. Careful what you wish for.....
Hey Kudos to Stiller for stepping up and making it right!
haha yea a bit of a setback but worth it
congrats on the good news. customer service goes along way with me.
i do quiet a bit of shopping online at cabela's, they are about 10% higher but theres no better customer service anywhere.
i d pull my eye teeth to have a local store to shop in.
I think you just did that! -- did it get you a Cabela"s? ;D
well gents, the day has finally arrived - i've got everything put together, all that i have left to do is the bedding. and of course shoot it haha. HUGE thanks to everyone on this great forum that has helped me out in this process, couldn't be happier with the end result.
the biggest challenge i ran into was that the stock wasn't inletted quite enough for the bottom metal to sit flush - somewhere between 1/16"-1/8" too shallow. i have limited tools so had to macgyver some random pieces into a setup in order to use the dremel. i was sweating pretty hard, but it actually turned out dam near perfect. anyways here are a few pics (first one is the macgyver setup just for laughs haha, it worked tho!)
ps i love how short the AI AW 10rd mag is
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Congrats
Let's see some groups!
Glad Stiller stepped up to the plate for you. I agree with Dano - lets see some groups!
Jerry
i should be able to get out to the range this weekend and i'll be sure to post some groups! i always hate break-in tho, such a pain
Think about the time and money you have invested - makes it easier to be patient. :P
i think in due time you ll see the rewards , good looking gun. congrats. with a premium hand lapped barrell it shouldnt need any break in but i still do the same thing on all mine, just habit. it will be a very short sweet process vs a hammer forged or button rifled barrell for sure.
Who's barrel did you end up going with? If it's a high quality aftermarket offering I think you will pleasantly surprised on how little "break in" is actually required ;) just get all the copper out after each of the initial 5-10 rds and your good to go. The barrel should not require break in, it's just getting rid of any rough edges left by reamer. Good smiths know how to deal with that also so I think you'll be smiling
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Tony beat me to the punch! Evidently he can out type as well as out shoot me also ;D
thanks guys!
good point, i haven't had a hand-lapped barrel before (i ended up getting a criterion for the barrel nut system ease of install/swap). i've always just followed the mfg suggested break-in procedure in full - how can you tell when it's broken in short of completing the process? just when it stops copper fouling?
Yes very little to no copper build up and it's really easy to clean.
And if I may suggest... The mPro7 line- copper remover and bore gel. Trust me!!! the more it's used the easier it becomes to clean bore. Best stuff I've found to date, hands down.
Quote from: Danbonzo on September 10, 2015, 09:25:03 PMYes very little to no copper build up and it's really easy to clean.
And if I may suggest... The mPro7 line- copper remover and bore gel. Trust me!!! the more it's used the easier it becomes to clean bore. Best stuff I've found to date, hands down.
yea after the recent thread on MPro7 i picked up some of their copper remover :) haven't looked at the bore gel because i still have a good amount of the gunslick foaming bore cleaner left but i'll give it a shot when i run out
we can all thank Rainier for the m-pro 7 stuff,
he knew i was hardheaded and wouldnt change from my solvents so he up and sent me some- once i saw for myself under the larry willis borescope what REALLY WORKED and WHAT DIDNT it was an easy change and i have been preaching it ever since, they even sell it at walmart here.
i pick up some quiet regularly in case they stop carrying it i wont have to order it. GREAT STUFF !! ;)
Walmart ?!!!!!
Quote from: jvw2008 on September 11, 2015, 06:32:16 AMWalmart ?!!!!!
[media id=1418 type=preview align=center caption="Got enough MPro7 there Mr Swampy"]
No copper in that groove !!!
:o
hahaha oh walmart, an endless supply of entertainment
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had a chance to get to the range and break her in this weekend. wind was extremely strong and gusty so that wasn't great, but didn't go too bad. my best 5-round groups are below. (100yds)
one slight issue i'd like to hear from you guys on - of the 58rds of factory hornady 120gr amax i put thru it, one round refused to chamber. the rest chambered just fine. do you think my headspace needs adjustment? i plan on pulling the one that wouldn't chamber and run it thru the sizing die to see if that solves it
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Can you compare the culprit to a round that will easily chamber? I'd suspect an oddball case in the factory ammo if all the others chambered no problem.
Quote from: Danbonzo on September 14, 2015, 01:53:40 AMCan you compare the culprit to a round that will easily chamber? I'd suspect an oddball case in the factory ammo if all the others chambered no problem.
my calipers are on loan to a friend right now but when i get them back i'll check it out using the hornady headspace gauge