The Creedmoor Forum

Quote from: pjogrinc on May 30, 2017, 11:07:49 PM1st  My gun shoots about 125 FPS faster than what others are getting, but that's is just my gun.  2 other local guns, one Ruger PRS and a custom build 6.5 CM both get lower velocities than what I get out of my MPA 6.5BA.  These where with the 39.7 grain loads of the first target.  Brought some extra rounds to let them try a couple and to settle barrel after shooting Nosler Match 6.5 ammo in a match the previous weekend.

43.5 puts me almost at 3,000 FPS, with sub 1 MOA OUT OF MY GUN, BUT I do not have any plans on loading up there in the 6.5-284 velocity range.  Case head expansion was + 0.002, neck expansion was + 0.002 and case length growth +0.003 over an unfired new Nosler brass and about the same expansion in the case neck and base, primer crater is 0.001 - 0.002, but much less case length growth, -0.007-8 over a Nosler Custom Match 140 gr factory load.  My gun craters most factory Nosler Custom match rounds, nature on my beast, I guess.

How long is your pipe and who's barrel? MPA?

Danbonzo, pjogrinc has it listed as a 24" on another forum.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/6-5-creedmoor-rl16-loads-139-scenar-186426/

QL shows according to the speed it is running at about Max to a bit over on the 42.7 gr at 2901 fps, the fastest load 43.5 gr at almost 3000 fps @ +72,000 psi, it is kinda like I had with RL26 and 3054 fps it takes over 70,000 psi to do it.
Pressure signs don 't show but it is over.

Quote from: bowfishn on May 31, 2017, 12:45:22 PMDanbonzo, pjogrinc has it listed as a 24" on another forum.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/6-5-creedmoor-rl16-loads-139-scenar-186426/

QL shows according to the speed it is running at about Max to a bit over on the 42.7 gr at 2901 fps, the fastest load 43.5 gr at almost 3000 fps @ +72,000 psi, it is kinda like I had with RL26 and 3054 fps it takes over 70,000 psi to do it.
Pressure signs don 't show but it is over.

24"? Must be a really fast pipe as stated.

Trust me I get it. I am making final adjustments on my match load using RE16 so I'm familiar with the speed and pressure signs (or lack of I should say) I settled on a very accurate node @ 2765mv. 40.8gr of RE16 in my 26" gets me very consistent and repeatable .25MOA. So far I've found that same  1/4"moa (minimum) accuracy and repeatable mv in that node testing four different projjys-140ELD-M's, 142SMK's, 140 Berg. Hyb., and a handful of 140RDF's a buddy gave me to try out. They all work really well and I call this the mid node for my barrel. I know for a fact that there is another laser node above it, but it's at 2900ish- for ME that's "Hot Rodding" the cartridge with a 140gr.+ Class bullet. I don't consider 2800mv plus (within reason and proportional barrel length) too hot as others have commented on. Hell I've chronoed factory ammo out of 26" pipes for guys that ran 2835-40 that didn't display even a hint of  cratering, yet alone symptomatic brass signs, but again- 26" pipes. As Rob pointed out, it frees up velocity, always a good thing..free velocity, as long as it's not abused. I know for certain from apples to apples testing that RE16 grants that extra mph in the Creed case very freely. So that is why I simply caution anyone to not overlook the speed. There is pressure there, it's just more at the end of the burn with the RE16 magic fairy dust. And I'm not being cynical at all, I love the stuff enough to have made the switch from the gold standard H4...

What I established tho is that the 26" length in my rig and at the 2810-2845 range forfeits the accuracy which I deem necessary for my needs. I still get 5/8 moa all day in that range with my 26" 5R but that's it due to harmonics. So the "safe" high node is in between the accuracy node I seek. 5/8 MOA- respectable yes imo, but not what I'm looking for in a $7k rig (TOO Elite??? Tough shit, I earned it too spend it!) Anyway my "high node" I ran last season was 2810-2815mv from a 24" Brux with absolutely no over pressure indications at all. FYI no pressure signs using Hornady brass, and tight (relative to Hornady) primer pockets for 7-8 reloadings on average before retiring the cases. That load gave me a 1/4 minute rifle for 2000 rds then slipped to 1/2" for the next 500. So at 2500 rounds down the tube, my throat was cashed, as I was giving up 40-50fps mv. So it got a fresh pipe over winter. Like I mentioned before I get the accuracy I demand at 2765, but I'm not willing to push it at 2900 to see that same accuracy from the "high" node in my rig. What I give up in drop between those two nodes (velocities) using a 140ELD-M and a G7 drag model of .310:
@500yds 5.5" and 116fps
@750yds 15.3 and 107fps
@1000yds 32.9"and 99fps
@1200yds 55.4 and 92fps
I could really argue 5.4"@ 500yds using a G7 of .320 with the retained velocity at that distance but it's splitting hairs.
 I believe the final speed decision comes down to what the shooter is ultimately good with based on their ability and capable rifle and it's components. It's been said many times, the proof is on the target(s)

Like I already said, just be smart guys. Know the limits and what you are comfortable with. Safe shooting.
Dan

Tried the GM215M primers in my 6.5 Creed using RL26 and HBN coated bullets.
The 130 ELD-M bullets seemed to like the Mag primers, ES dropped into the single digits with good groups at 100.
The 143 ELD-X bullets ES opened up, strange they would shoot several almost ditto on velocity and then one would be 15 - 20 fps up or down. Worked up and down the loads that worked out for the BR2 primers, and tried seating shorter and longer by .010" still the same thing. Groups were between .300" and .470" CTC at 100 yards. Velocities were checked with Magnetospeed Sporter.
My sweet spot with 143 ELD-X was 48 gr of RL26 @ 2990-3000 fps, with HBN coating had to come up .5 gr to match non coated, with mag primers it jumped back up so I reduced .5 gr back to 48 gr to match velocity. Tried from 47 - 48.5 gr at .5 gr jumps always same result with mag primers.
Still too early to make a solid conclusion with my set up but it appears the lighter bullet gets a gain from faster ignition were as the heavier does not need it.
The 130's shoot best at the 3000 fps mark as well and I will be testing the new JLK 130 VLDs with both the BR2s and GM215M primers.
Anyone else try these primers with RL26?

Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on May 31, 2017, 01:04:40 AMYour one of the few on here that knows what Skookum means ;-)

Count me as one.   I grew up in the Pacific NW right in the midst of several tribal reservations.

Hello bowfishn,

I've done several "back to back" primer comparisons with various loads. I've basically concluded that I really can't make decent predictions on primer performance between different powder/bullet/calibers.  Some will yield faster or slower MVs, usually in the 15-25 FPS range depending on caliber.  Rather than aiming for specific or max MV, I'll humbly suggest choosing the primer that yields the most consistency  (lowest SD) and tightest groups over time. I've learned not to rely on a single day's data, but aggregate notes over multiple shooting days to mitigate Type I errors.

With Mag primers in 6.5 Creed, I have found magnum primers do not improve SD nor precision.  (I guess this is why Lapua cases are small rifle primer?)  There used to be a really nice blog by German Salazar called "The Rifleman's Journal". Sadly, I think this is no longer public.  There was a nice article where they tried to quantify more than the Brisance of standard vs. Mag rifle primers, using night photography.  If I remember, the results were not conclusive.  Does anyone else remember this article?

I would suggest not ignoring "cheaper" primers - I've found that just because something says "Match" doesn't mean a cheap primer like Wolff can't be skookum (shout out to other PNW's!) for that load!

Quote from: graydigger525 on June 02, 2017, 11:37:16 AMHello bowfishn,

I've done several "back to back" primer comparisons with various loads. I've basically concluded that I really can't make decent predictions on primer performance between different powder/bullet/calibers.  Some will yield faster or slower MVs, usually in the 15-25 FPS range depending on caliber.  Rather than aiming for specific or max MV, I'll humbly suggest choosing the primer that yields the most consistency  (lowest SD) and tightest groups over time. I've learned not to rely on a single day's data, but aggregate notes over multiple shooting days to mitigate Type I errors.

With Mag primers in 6.5 Creed, I have found magnum primers do not improve SD nor precision.  (I guess this is why Lapua cases are small rifle primer?)  There used to be a really nice blog by German Salazar called "The Rifleman's Journal". Sadly, I think this is no longer public.  There was a nice article where they tried to quantify more than the Brisance of standard vs. Mag rifle primers, using night photography.  If I remember, the results were not conclusive. Does anyone else remember this article?

I would suggest not ignoring "cheaper" primers - I've found that just because something says "Match" doesn't mean a cheap primer like Wolff can't be skookum (shout out to other PNW's!) for that load!

I do recall that article and I believe there might be a working copy of it posted on Accurateshooter.com.   It might be in their "article"archive.

As for primers, the only time I've used Magnum primers in a rifle load was by accident.   Never found them to do anything for my loads.    I do really like the Wolf primers and am working down my supply of then that I bought a few years ago for $15/thousand.   Just to make sure I didn't run out, I bought a case of both Tula Small Rifle primers and some Tula Large Rifle Primers.

They yield the same chrono numbers in same brass, bullet, powder combinations as I got from Federal GMM Primers.

Haven't broken into the Tula cases yet except to extract a tray for test purposes.   Once I start using them I may have to ration them until I can either find more or stock up on the Fed GMM's.

FWIW, Today, using the Fed GMM's with Hornady brass, RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's; measuring speed with a Magnetospeed, I actually had several test strings register SD's in the LOW single digits.   One string had an SD of 2 with 3 out of 5 charges yielding the SAME speed.    It was also shocking that the test load with that super low SD was also the best group downrange (about the size of an M&M) 

This is all great info guy's keep it coming. Thanks

There are a few that have reduced SD with the Use of Mag primers with slow powders, but as German had mentioned you need to try different primers with different powder combos there is not just one that works for all. There are quite a few using Lapua with small rifle primers that have had results with mag primers as well in the past with 308 loads. I tried to get a box of the Federal GM210M but not available around my location. I did pick up one box of Federal 210s to try.
My load of 48.5 gr of RL26 with the HBN coated 143 ELD-X using BR2s at 2990+ fps gives me SDs of 5.5-6 with the last 20 I have checked, and my groups at 100 are more than adequate.(I have not put 5 into a M&M as of yet though) But that does not mean I am settling before exhausting other changes that might give me even better results.
Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Most of Salazars blogs are not available to the public anymore, to bad as he has a vast amount of knowledge on precision reloading. I really enjoyed his one on the 30-06 and accuracy.

Had some fun time at the range yesterday afternoon.    Usually shoot in the morning hours which are cooler and wind is fairly calm (most mornings)..   Yesterday afternoon was a nice comfy 70 degrees but had wind running from 7-10 mph. 

Was working on a load using Hornady brass, Fed 210 GMM primers, RL-16, and 147 gr ELD-M's.

Since there is no published data for the 147's and RL-16 I started out a little low at 39.7 gr. (RL-16) and increasing 3 gr with each step.

Here are the "numbers":
(5-shot groups)

39.7  2651 fps avg     SD 4   ES 12
40.0   2667                 SD 5   ES 15
40.3   2682                 SD  12 ES 31
40.6    2700                SD 5     ES 10
40.9    2715                SD 1.5   ES 2

The Target:   (Starting at top Left)




In "Group 4" it all came together and "Group 5" was about 12 hour later with a little more wind than Group 4.   Group 1 was also a fouling group as I didn't really expect much from an under 40 gr load.

No pressure sign at all so I probably could have gone on for several more increments however, why?

At 2700 fps the 147 gr bullet will reach 1300 yards while still traveling Mach 1.2.   Not transonic yet so no buffeting and accuracy should be limited only to my ability to read wind.    It breaks below supersonic at 1600 yards but requires 6 mils more in elevation to keep it off the ground. (13 Mil at 1300 yards versus 19.2 mils at 1600 yards.

All these groups were shot with the Magneto speed attached and my experience is that when removed from my barrel the groups tighten up noticeably.    Wonder if Group #4 will become truly a {One Hole'r     Next time out I am definitely going to see what happens when I test the area of 40.6 -40.9 gr of RL-16 in .1 gr increments and I'll shoot the test at 300 yards so I'll have any changes magnified.

Earlier testing with the 147 gr ELD-M's and RL-17 showed faster speeds but also showed some serious pressure concerns when cartridge "heat soaked" in a warm rifle.   Not a single hint of pressure or speed change no matter how long the rounds were chambered.   

How much faster can I go with the RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's?   Probably another 100 fps or so but since I don't need it, I think I'll stick right here.   Powder is barely up into the shoulder area and with my seating depth there is no "crunch".  2.852" COAL gives me a jump of .020"

BTW, my barrel is a 24" Benchmark with 1:8 Twist and only 3-Groves.  Tends to run a little faster than others.

Hi Deadshot2
Here are some numbers for you run on QL, not sure of your brass so I used my Nosler @ 42.70 H2O, if yours is Hornady the pressures and vel would go down if yours is Lapua it would go up. I would assume that because velocities are close to your Magnetospeed vel. that the nosler brass setting works for you.
Nice load work up by the way. Groups 4 and 5 are similar to my 130 ELD-M with RL26 at 48 gr ES was 8 and SD 3.11 3006 fps
Cartridge          : 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady
Bullet             : .264, 147, Hornady ELD-M 26333
Useable Case Capaci: 46.156 grain H2O = 2.997 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.852 inch = 72.44 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-16

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.48% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-04.8   96    39.70   2632    2261   50731   9233    100.0    1.329
-04.3   96    39.90   2644    2281   51517   9254    100.0    1.320
-03.8   97    40.10   2656    2302   52316   9275    100.0    1.311
-03.4   97    40.30   2667    2322   53127   9296    100.0    1.302
-02.9   98    40.50   2679    2343   53950   9316    100.0    1.293  ! Near Maximum !
-02.4   98    40.70   2691    2363   54785   9337    100.0    1.284  ! Near Maximum !
-01.9   99    40.90   2703    2384   55634   9357    100.0    1.276  ! Near Maximum !
-01.4   99    41.10   2714    2405   56495   9377    100.0    1.267  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  100    41.30   2726    2425   57369   9397    100.0    1.259  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  100    41.50   2738    2446   58257   9417    100.0    1.250  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  101    41.70   2749    2467   59159   9437    100.0    1.242  ! Near Maximum !
+00.5  101    41.90   2761    2488   60075   9456    100.0    1.234  ! Near Maximum !
+01.0  102    42.10   2772    2508   61004   9476    100.0    1.225  ! Near Maximum !
+01.4  102    42.30   2784    2529   61948   9495    100.0    1.217  ! Near Maximum !
+01.9  103    42.50   2795    2550   62907   9514    100.0    1.209  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.4  103    42.70   2807    2571   63881   9533    100.0    1.201  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    101    41.70   2841    2634   71608   9057    100.0    1.155  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    101    41.70   2607    2218   47118   9823     98.8    1.361

Thanks bowfishn for the QL data

It kind of confirms what I decided, that I'd just work around the two good groups I have rather than pushing up on the pressure curve for another 15-20 fps. (that I don't really need for what I am doing).

I also took note of the last statements at the bottom, especially the "adjustment" for different lot burn rates.

If I can work at 2700-2714 fps from a 24" bbl and reach out accurately as far as I care to walk, my brass will appreciate it  

Thanks again.


Note:   I've been fooling around with different powders just to make sure I have something to work with when any one or more become scarce.   In addition to H-4350 I have found great success with IMR-4451, RL-17, and now RL-16.   Next on my list will be some Superformance..  Lots of it on the shelf locally and Hornady lists it in their reload data as another powder that will send the 147 gr ELD-M's downrange close to 2700 fps.   I find that in my barrel, what they call a 2650 fps load is a 2700 fps load.   They show 42.9 gr of the Superformance yielding 2650 fps so I figure that I should be able to hit the sweet spot in my barrel at or slightly above that.

Superformance is "supposed" to be another of the "temperature insensitive" powders so it "might" be worth having a recipe for.

Like I said in another post, "I've got the time and to me it's fun so why not?"   If I end up burning up a barrel, Ron and Barry at Benchmark will be happy to make me a new one (for the proper amount of money of course).   Because I anticipate replacing more barrels in the future I'm converting my Remingtons to "Remage" as they get new barrels.  Already have the tools for my Savage so I just need to add a couple gauges to the toolbox.

Quote from: Deadshot2 on June 03, 2017, 10:34:31 AMHad some fun time at the range yesterday afternoon.    Usually shoot in the morning hours which are cooler and wind is fairly calm (most mornings)..   Yesterday afternoon was a nice comfy 70 degrees but had wind running from 7-10 mph. 

Was working on a load using Hornady brass, Fed 210 GMM primers, RL-16, and 147 gr ELD-M's.

Since there is no published data for the 147's and RL-16 I started out a little low at 39.7 gr. (RL-16) and increasing 3 gr with each step.

Here are the "numbers":
(5-shot groups)

39.7  2651 fps avg     SD 4   ES 12
40.0   2667                 SD 5   ES 15
40.3   2682                 SD  12 ES 31
40.6    2700                SD 5     ES 10
40.9    2715                SD 1.5   ES 2

The Target:   (Starting at top Left)




In "Group 4" it all came together and "Group 5" was about 12 hour later with a little more wind than Group 4.   Group 1 was also a fouling group as I didn't really expect much from an under 40 gr load.

No pressure sign at all so I probably could have gone on for several more increments however, why?

At 2700 fps the 147 gr bullet will reach 1300 yards while still traveling Mach 1.2.   Not transonic yet so no buffeting and accuracy should be limited only to my ability to read wind.    It breaks below supersonic at 1600 yards but requires 6 mils more in elevation to keep it off the ground. (13 Mil at 1300 yards versus 19.2 mils at 1600 yards.

All these groups were shot with the Magneto speed attached and my experience is that when removed from my barrel the groups tighten up noticeably.    Wonder if Group #4 will become truly a {One Hole'r     Next time out I am definitely going to see what happens when I test the area of 40.6 -40.9 gr of RL-16 in .1 gr increments and I'll shoot the test at 300 yards so I'll have any changes magnified.

Earlier testing with the 147 gr ELD-M's and RL-17 showed faster speeds but also showed some serious pressure concerns when cartridge "heat soaked" in a warm rifle.   Not a single hint of pressure or speed change no matter how long the rounds were chambered.   

How much faster can I go with the RL-16 and 147 gr ELD-M's?   Probably another 100 fps or so but since I don't need it, I think I'll stick right here.   Powder is barely up into the shoulder area and with my seating depth there is no "crunch".  2.852" COAL gives me a jump of .020"

BTW, my barrel is a 24" Benchmark with 1:8 Twist and only 3-Groves.  Tends to run a little faster than others.

Are these 200 yard groups like you normally shoot?

Quote from: MLN1963 on June 04, 2017, 07:40:26 PMAre these 200 yard groups like you normally shoot?

No, these are 100 yard targets.  I was passing through my initial load workup so I could move out, maybe 300 yards Tuesday.   It also has a lot to do with how much standing water and mud there is between 100 and 300 yards.      

Quote from: Deadshot2 on June 04, 2017, 10:09:10 PMNo, these are 100 yard targets.  I was passing through my initial load workup so I could move out, maybe 300 yards Tuesday.   It also has a lot to do with how much standing water and mud there is between 100 and 300 yards.     

I see you're from Louisiana also .  Then again, you did not mention having to carry a sidearm to fend off the mosquitos .  Third F-class match this year cancelled due to water in the pits .