a member asked if i would give the details on how to remove the hard carbon and burnt in carbon in a barrel... so here it goes...to start with i make no claims that doing this will hurt or help your barrels...i know for me i have cleaned that burnt in carbon that solvents wont touch out of 4 of my rifles and their all 4 shooting great afterwards... proceed at your own risk..
to start with about a month and a half ago i was shooting my 6.5x284... this barrel has about a 1000 rounds down it now and its still shooting pretty good... 1/2 moa groups.. i had cleaned the gun pretty good and looked in it with my bore scope and i could still see the burnt in carbon in it and the lands and first couple inches of the bore was fire cracked bad... but it wasnt black and didnt look like carbon really... i thought i would get real aggressive with jb bore paste and kroil.. first i ran 3 soaked patches of kroil down the bore and let it set for 15 minutes... then i took a 7mm bronze brush and packed it full of jb bore paste.. then i went to running the brush back and forth through the full length of the barrel.. heres where your going to think im crazy..lol but i did this at least a 100 strokes ... all kinds of black stuff came out... i then moped the bore out with patches soaked in kroil till they came out clean... looked it over with the scope and it looked alot better but i could still see carbon down in the groves on the first half of the barrel so i let it soak another 15 minutes..
loaded the brush back up with jb and went to work on the first half of the barrel... another 100 strokes back and forth... patched it out and looked again... this time i could see some of that fire cracking at the lands and the first couple inches of the bore was gone... and most of the black carbon was gone in the groves except the firs 6 inches of the bore...
soaked it again and loaded the brush back up with jb and gave the first 6 inches of the bore another 100 strokes.. mopped it out and looked and could barely see any fire cracking... i gave it another 50 strokes in the first 6 inches and mopped it out agai and couldnt believe what i was seeing... the fire cracking was gone... clean shiny barrel..you could tell the very start of the lands were melted away a little.. i had northland shooter supply on speed dial because i was pretty sure i had just ruined my barrel.. but i loaded the mag with 10 rounds and the first 4 or 5 was all over the place...lol.. im talking bad... i thought yep i junked it... but sent the other 5 down it and with each shot it was getting closer and closer to my zero point... loaded 10 more and by shot 15 it was hitting back where it should have been... i then shot a 3 shot group at a hundred yards and they were all in a ragged hole... so i went for 430 yards.. and there i shot a 3/4 inch group... i was all smiles... now i dont know what the long term effects of this type of cleaning will do but i do know for a 6.5x284 with a 1000 rounds down it that has been hammerd on its whole life it should be toast and appeared to be when i started... but now i think theirs alot of life left in this barrel... i was so pleased and shocked i went to work on a creedmoor barrel and had the same results... so i took two more down to bare metal and their all shooting like the should... if you want to get that burnt in hard carbon out give this a try... if you think its unneccessary then dont bother... makes me no difference... just sharing my experience...
i should have added i dont have any pic's to back this up but i shared this info with autoxforfun and he did it and has pics in this thread if you want to see.. https://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=12287.0
To do this procedure, consider wrapping the bronze brush with one layer of patch material saturated with JB. The patch holds the JB in place preventing it from migrating into the brush. The cloth over the brush also allows you to reverse direction more easily when you start short stroking the first 4-8" of the barrel. Occasionally pull the brush and recoat with JB. If the patch cloth is getting worn out put a new one on. Holding the JB out against the metal of the bore will allow you to use a whole lot less strokes.
Thanks for taking the time to share. Looks like you have found the fountain of youth, or at least plastic surgery , for rifle barrels! Will try this on the used 25-06.
When i first started using jb i also wrapped a patch around the brush but getting the patch out of the brush was a pain in the arse.. lol.. these last 4 barrels i ditched the patch and seemed to work better and be more effective.. ymmv
Is this the duo that you used?
https://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/bore-cleaning-paste/j-b-kroil-sku083065000-1159-4119.aspx
Theirs bore bright and non embedding paste
Yes it is gregg..
I use Kroill in the spray can form....it seems easier for me to apply.
@gman47564 Thanks for posting up your experience, I'm curious about working the forward portions of the barrel only on the 2nd and 3rd treatments. The way I've always understood and followed is that you should never reverse direction with a bore brush in the barrel especially a bronze brush and with that being said I'd think an oversized 7mm in a 6.5 barrel would be worse yet.
Am I misunderstanding something here? You and I are good enough friends to know I'm not trying to debate you here. Serious question are you reversing the brush in the rifling or am i reading this wrong. I do short stroke the neck throat area being extremely careful not to get into the rifling but have never reversed the brush in the actual rifled bore.
Recently I've started to doubt these "rules" just on the idea that a bore brush couldn't possibly compare to what goes on inside the barrel when a bullet goes from 0 to 2900+ fps 26 inches because of a high pressure explosion with a stream of superheated gas and carbon particles pushing it along.
Dave that first 100 strokes through the full length of the barrel wears quiet a bit on the brush.. but to answer your question yes i have been reversing the brush in the bore.. i can see no ill effects of it with my bore scope..
Dave try what i have described on a old barrel that you have pulled off.. bet you will be surprised how it looks when your done
Dave, I've heard that same thing for years, but no one has put
up any proof one way or the other that reversing the direction
in the barrel with a nylon or copper brush will damage a stainless barrel.
Not that it couldn't.
I do think you need to be very careful of the rod dropping down
as you exist and re-enter the barrel, if you don't reverse in the barrel.
Damaging the crown is one of the ways to do harm to your groups.
I thought i was reading it correctly and felt like I was asking a stupid question but had to ask. In the other thread that prompted this thread I posted about my preference to cleaning a warm or hot barrel and my belief it's easier to clean them and requires less effort. As bad as I'd like to load my guns up and go home they get cleaned right there on the bench warm, regardless of whether I'm at my personal range or at a match.
This is on my bench guns of course my plain old guns live under a looser set of rules you might say.
Quote from: jvw2008 on March 02, 2021, 07:46:44 PMTo do this procedure, consider wrapping the bronze brush with one layer of patch material saturated with JB. The patch holds the JB in place preventing it from migrating into the brush. The cloth over the brush also allows you to reverse direction more easily when you start short stroking the first 4-8" of the barrel. Occasionally pull the brush and recoat with JB. If the patch cloth is getting worn out put a new one on. Holding the JB out against the metal of the bore will allow you to use a whole lot less strokes.
I will stand by this statement. I think it's much safer and more effective to actually clean with JB rather than bronze. I would not put 300 strokes of a bronze brass down any of my barrels. When I've done this procedure for my barrels no more than 50 strokes max has been required.
Not trying to argue Grant. Just stating my concerns and prior findings.
Dave you are right.. a warm or even hot barrel does clean easier.. but i will say this again their is some of that carbon that gets burnt in there that solvents just wont remove.. it doesnt matter what kind you use.. or when you use it ..
No worries jerry.. like i said in my first post proceed at your own risk.. thats what it took to clean all that crap out of mine.. and i will stand by my method as well..
Quote from: Ranger 188 on March 02, 2021, 08:48:41 PMDave, I've heard that same thing for years, but no one has put
up any proof one way or the other that reversing the direction
in the barrel with a nylon or copper brush will damage a stainless barrel.
Not that it couldn't.
I do think you need to be very careful of the rod dropping down
as you exist and re-enter the barrel, if you don't reverse in the barrel.
Damaging the crown is one of the ways to do harm to your groups.
First I'm hopeful this thread won't deteriorate into a barrel cleaning peeing contest as most usually do ???? but i have accidently when aggresively brushing a barrel reversed the brush in a bore and the feeling of the reversal had me convinced no good was being done there.
I couldn't agree more about dropping the rod and think that is what a bore guide and a properly fitting rod are for and I know of no proof either way on reversing the brush but the LAST place I think it should be reversed is at the crown in the last place a bullet has contact with the rifling.
I use the JB paste as well regularly on a patch smeared with it wrapped around a jag and also on a patch wrapped brush smeared with it as well. Its my opinion the patch keeps the paste on the lands and in the grooves either way. I would think after a few strokes on a brush alone most of the paste would be forced down in amongst the bristles making little contact with the bore.
These are my opinions based on my experiences and everyone is free to do their own thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I do feel all schools of thought should be represented.
Quote from: gman47564 on March 02, 2021, 08:54:44 PMDave you are right.. a warm or even hot barrel does clean easier.. but i will say this again their is some of that carbon that gets burnt in there that solvents just wont remove.. it doesnt matter what kind you use.. or when you use it ..
And you are right as well, I use a 50/50 mix of Kroil & Butches then follow that with JB on a patch wrapped jag or brush then a final (2-4) patches of straight Kroil. Again my thoughts being the warmth of the barrel requires a less aggressive cleaning, not claiming solvents alone will do it.
All i can say is take one of your old barrels that you consider is junk and give my way a honest try.. it worked for me and appears to have worked for bob as well ..but the jury is still out on his till he gets a chance to shoot his..
I should add this to this thread.. im not advocating doing this to a fresh barrel.. or even one that has 4 or 500 rounds down it.. and if you know for sure that you have stayed on top of keeping the carbon out then its not necessary at all.. but if you have a barrel thats all carboned up and looks to be on its last leg then go to town on it.. its work to get that stuff out of there but it will come out and it just might put off screwing a new pipe on one for several 100 more rounds..
Too bad the first 6- 12" of the inside of the barrel can't be a replaceable sleeve. Just make that part of the barrel thicker.
Quote from: gman47564 on March 02, 2021, 09:31:11 PMAll i can say is take one of your old barrels that you consider is junk and give my way a honest try.. it worked for me and appears to have worked for bob as well ..but the jury is still out on his till he gets a chance to shoot his..
I'm not sure I have any barrels I consider junk. I've got a brass fire form BRA barrel with several thousand rounds that I'm sure is worn out but as long as the neck throat area is clean and carbon ring free so it's not over pressuring that's good enough.
I think you're misunderstanding my position here Grant. I'm certainly not arguing or doubting your or Bob's results. I consider you both knowledgeable and trustworthy.
I'm saying regular cleaning with JB on a patch on a favorable condition (warm barrel) and a person may not wind up in a nothing to lose position that requires 300 strokes, 200 which are reversing a bronze brush laden with abrasives in the bore.
Nowhere did I say you're wrong or your method doesn't get a barrel clean.
My take away from my experience and this thread is that I got a barrel into a state where it was needing to be replaced. What Grant proposed was a way to pull that back from the brink and get more useful life out of it. I am now going to be more aware of how the barrel is degrading and how to keep from requiring such drastic actions. So before it gets this bad, would using a nylon brush or a wrapped brush with JB/Kroill be able to prevent reaching this point. I know I too have read that reversing a brass brush in the barrel is bad....but I have always been a little suspect of this....brass versus SS seems like not a bad thing.
This is a last resort effort. You don't do this after 100 rounds.
This has been mentioned here.
If you are about to throw away a barrel, then you have very little to lose.
Wish I had a least tried this on a couple barrels I thought were toast
before I trashed them. Next one, I'll give it a try.
Thanks G
Quote from: autoxforfun on March 02, 2021, 10:26:54 PMMy take away from my experience and this thread is that I got a barrel into a state where it was needing to be replaced. What Grant proposed was a way to pull that back from the brink and get more useful life out of it. I am now going to be more aware of how the barrel is degrading and how to keep from requiring such drastic actions. So before it gets this bad, would using a nylon brush or a wrapped brush with JB/Kroill be able to prevent reaching this point. I know I too have read that reversing a brass brush in the barrel is bad....but I have always been a little suspect of this....brass versus SS seems like not a bad thing.
I understand the position that required the method I'm not knocking to correct it. I'm suggesting changes in frequency, techniques and conditions in regular cleaning may prevent getting to the point of needing to go to this extreme.
Dave's correct. Proper periodic cleanings.
In some calibers and usage, like running them with a hot load or a overbore caliber,
or some powders, it's harder to avoid.
That's what we need to take away from this, check your bore and
keep on top of it.
Quote from: Ranger 188 on March 02, 2021, 11:07:09 PMDave's correct. Proper periodic cleanings.
In some calibers and usage, like running them with a hot load or a overbore caliber,
or some powders, it's harder to avoid.
That's what we need to take away from this, check your bore and
keep on top of it.
I couldnt agree more.. i have been kind of obsessed with trying to keep the hard carbon out here the last several months.. I've used all the so called best solvents.. I've got into cleaning them when the barrel is still hot.. (this helps) but even at that the carbon still builds up in there and next thing you know the first couple inches of the bore looks like alligator hide.. and as far as i knew that was just part of the game.. thats why they make new pipes right.. well after doing what i did the new pipe will be held off for a while and my cleaning process will change.. i will now be using jb bore paste every couple hundred rounds to remove that stuff.. and now that i have it out of there i will probably start using a per caliber brush.. but the per caliber brush wasnt cutting it to start with.. as far as reversing the brush i dont see how it can hurt the ss barrel.. them bristles flex and roll over when reversed.. just my thinking..
Got my 6.5x284 out this morning.. after shooting it some the other day after that aggressive cleaning i wanted to see how it looked after 40 rounds the other day.. looked pretty good but i could still see a couple streaks of carbon in the groves so i went at it again with the jb.. till there was zero carbon left.. i then measured the throat growth. With this barrel close to a 1000 rounds down it i was suprised to find only .032 growth.. not good but not bad for the round count.. i then took it out and shot it 10 times at a 100 yards.. my first shot dead centered one of the little orange dots.. but it took all 10 to settle down.. i then put 3 on a 2 inch plate at 250.. just under a half inch.. i then put 2 in a gophers head at 300.. also under a half inch.. moved to 430 and went 5 for 5 on a 2 inch plate.. getting aggressive with getting carbon out doesnt seem to hurt them too bad.. ????
Grant, I took my 6.5-284 out and checked this yesterday. It has around 400 rounds down the barrel and it didn't look too bad. I did take a little extra time and cleaned it up some....not completely to bare metal. I have a local 1000 yard match on Monday and want to shot it in the Heavy Gun relay, so I didn't want it too clean. I also checked the 6.5 CM that I plan to shoot in the Light Gun relay and it looked pretty good so I left it alone. I'll let you know how it goes.
For the record, I use RL-26 in the 6.5-284 and RL-16 in the CM.
Good stuff. Thanks to Grant and all others that contributed. Can't absorb all these nuggets so I will archive/print. Just a hunter so the rounds count is pretty low on all my sticks. But, if I have one that opens up out of standard after my normal cleaning routine, will give a modified version of the drill a go.
Quote from: autoxforfun on March 20, 2021, 10:54:03 PMGrant, I took my 6.5-284 out and checked this yesterday. It has around 400 rounds down the barrel and it didn't look too bad. I did take a little extra time and cleaned it up some....not completely to bare metal. I have a local 1000 yard match on Monday and want to shot it in the Heavy Gun relay, so I didn't want it too clean. I also checked the 6.5 CM that I plan to shoot in the Light Gun relay and it looked pretty good so I left it alone. I'll let you know how it goes.
For the record, I use RL-26 in the 6.5-284 and RL-16 in the CM.
Good luck in your match monday bob.. i know you will do well..
A couple pics of the bore of my 6mm creedmoor.. this pipe has a 1000+ rounds down it.. the first pic is the lands. Second pic is a half inch in front of the lands and the rest of the barrel looks identical.. the lands has movved forward .030 in this one.. before i started on it their was lots of fire cracking in the first 4 or 5 inches of the barrel.. a couple months ago i would have said it was time for a new pipe from just looking at it.. today not so much.. with the right stuff and effort them high rouund count pipes can live on.. i wont bore the forum any more about this but thought i would one last time.. ????
I will also post a couple pics showing how this shot after the aggressive cleaning if they load..
One loaded and one wouldnt.. i had 2 in the head of that gopher at 300 and these 3 on a plate at 430.. the 6 creed is shooting as good as it ever did..
Great job on the clean-up. Pretty amazing. I think we have all learned from your experience...????