So I have been staring at 50 pieces of 300 saum brass for the past 8 months. The Curiosity finally got the best of me. The thought of a 140 gr berger traveling 3100 fps on a short action fed from a mag was too much.
I called Mark at SAC and we drew up a quote for a build. He had a stock left over from another build which happened to be exactly what I wanted and had the rest of the parts on hand as well. So hopefully in a few months I will be sharing some information on this round.
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Left to right
300 rem Saum, 7mm saum, 6.5 saum 4s, 6.5 creedmoor
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I ordered my dies from Josh at Copper Creek and he was great at packaging a die set of 7mm redding type S FL comp dies. He added a VLD seater and and the bushings I needed to convert 300 saum brass to 6.5 saum brass. .
Josh was a great resource and actually helped pick out the bushings and walked me through the process.
Bushings were .320, .305, .290
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I ordered brass from Bullets.com and picked up some 7mm saum brass from Norma. Looks very similar to Nosler.
Set up my dies last night and I made a piece of 6.5 saum from both the REM 300 and the Norma 7mm brass.
Turning was a hell of a lot easier than converting 243 lapua brass into creedmoor brass. I actually enjoyed the neck turning portion.
For the 300 Saum brass I followed these steps.
1. remove decapping expander from stem
2. install .320 bushing and size
3. install .305 bushing and size
3. install .290 bushing and size
4. expand neck and turn to 15 thou.
for the 7mm brass I skipped the .320 bushing.
This is intriguing!
I'm not going to push this round like they do on SH. I'm just going to sip the cool aid and give my honest opinion.
To shoot a round at 1000 yards with a 140 gr berger and use 6-6.5 mils of adjustment over the 7.5-8 mils that I use with my creedmoor made me try this round.
Very cool!
Build specs are the following
Defiance Alpha II action from SAC
Manners TF3a with badger EFR
Calvin Elite trigger set at 1.5#
barlein 5r barrel M24 with 8.3 twist @ 26"
threaded for muzzle brake - undecided still.
Stock is done by Custom Gun Coatings in 3 color flectern camo
Rooks has a new build going and kinda twisted my arm.
8.3 Twist
That's a different one again. II read GAP have been using an 8.7 on their 6.5 SAUM builds
Is there that much difference in performance between 8.3,8.5 & 8.7 twists?
a local gunsmith- not mine - built a 300wsm necked down to 6.5 and although it shoots 3300 fps and shoots pretty good using a hart barrell its gonna eat barrells like a mutha. he knew this going in to it but the customer didnt care. it was built for a long range western hunt. good luck with the barrell life and the whole build in general. keep us updated.
Gonna test the waters Swamp. Like you said, barrels are expendable.
I'll try the 6.5 this time then rebarrel to the straight 7mm saum if it doesn't pan out.
Aussie,
I think the 8.7 gap rifles are more suited for the 130s. At least that's what the guys who have them seem to be loading from threads on the Hide. I told Mark I wanted to stick with the 140 bergers and that's what he gave me.
Quote from: kalindark on November 28, 2014, 07:13:40 AMGonna test the waters Swamp. Like you said, barrels are expendable.
I'll try the 6.5 this time then rebarrel to the straight 7mm saum if it doesn't pan out.
Aussie,
I think the 8.7 gap rifles are more suited for the 130s. At least that's what the guys who have them seem to be loading from threads on the Hide. I told Mark I wanted to stick with the 140 bergers and that's what he gave me.
Fair enough mate.
Those guys have played with them a lot so they would know.
So they are really calculating for absolute maximum stability shooting one projectile type down to the letter?
There's been a few 6.5 SAUM up here on the aussie forums. Long range hunting though.
yep, i learned along time ago that if your gonna shoot then its gonna cost money.
the 7saum may or may not be as bad , i dont know but i'd guess it would be. hopefully not.
to be able to push the high b.c. bergers at over 3000 fps with sub moa accuracy would be a dream build. if yours last 2000 rounds i will be on the band wagon and build me one for sure. but im gonna let you test the waters haha
good luck brother
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I'll burn it up as fast as I can Swamp.
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Finished 50 pieces.
turned to .293 neck
trimmed to 2.023"
Now back to waiting.
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I feel all warm and fuzzy inside......
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pics from SAC.
Looks awesome. Can't wait to see this thing perform at Thundervalley, VBR PA and any PRS events we do in 2015.
I'm jealous Mark got your SAUM done before my .338LM. Oh well, you still have a lot of neck turning to do... 8)
Definitely eye candy for sure! Anxiously await some results!
Quote from: kalindark on December 01, 2014, 04:07:06 PM[media id=537 type=preview align=center caption="IMG 8356"]
I'll burn it up as fast as I can Swamp.
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Finished 50 pieces.
turned to .293 neck
trimmed to 2.023"
Now back to waiting.
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I feel all warm and fuzzy inside......
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pics from SAC.
haha, i hear ya.
im gonna be watching and LEARNING the results of speed, accuracy and barrell life. keep us posted, she's purty ( pretty) lol
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Gun is shipping tomorrow. From quote to shipping was less than a month. :D
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Well I picked up the rifle today and without shooting it yet and going strictly off of fit, finish and function. I'm blown away with this build.
The manners folding stock is solid I think I may like the vertical grip slightly more than my T5a.
The paint and texture by Custom Gun Coatings is very Nice, I really like the camo. The added textured grip really makes for a solid purchase on the stock.
The Timmeny Calvin elite set at 1.5# is crisp and besides the wider shoe, I'm not sure I could tell blindfolded between my jewell.
The action with the APA bolt knob cycles very well and Ive tried some dummy rounds In the Accurate mag WSM mag and will have more than enough room to chase the lands. I think the mag will take coal of 2.980"
Which I found the lands with a 130 berger at 2.865"
The rifle with scope is all of 16#s. I'll get an official weight in a few days.
I have some left over berger 140 BTs loaded to sight In and break In and plan to work up a load for the 130 berger vlds for hunting and will try the 140 berger hybrids or 140 amaxs for Target.
I have some h1000, retumbo and some IMR7828ssc that I'll tinker with.
Going to start with h1000 since that seems to be a known favorite.
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Looks nice Josh.
Less than a month turn around !
You would go insane here. No one here turns a full build around in that time.
There are just not enough good gunsmiths here.
3 months would be about the best you could hope for on a full build & that's if you have all the bits ready to go.
Jealous as mate, should be a nail driver.
wow, thats a bold statement on the trigger. i need to find one to feel now. how are they in price comparison. my price on a jewell is 185.00
hey bud, do you think the rail on the front will affect barrell harmonics and accuracy?
Quote from: swampthang on December 05, 2014, 05:09:35 AMwow, thats a bold statement on the trigger. i need to find one to feel now. how are they in price comparison. my price on a jewell is 185.00
hey bud, do you think the rail on the front will affect barrell harmonics and accuracy?
I think I was charged around $210 for the trigger. I had to try it again this morning and it is nice Swamp.
As for the rail. There is plenty of room around the barrel so I don't believe it will affect harmonics. but once I find a load I can take the top half off and check the accuracy.
ok.
So after sleeping a few hours after a 12 hr night shift. I set up my shooting mat at the range in light misty rain and 28 degrees.
I used 5 rounds to break the barrel in before the copper started to die off. I loaded some 130 berger hunters up from 59 to 61.5.
Only shot the 60 grs of h1000 for a 3 shot group at a 100 yards.
There was a grandfather and grandson there getting ready for rifle season and I let the boy shoot one of the 59 gr loads. He was excited as hell to shoot my rifle. His response was "That thing kicks like a 22!"
So needless to say I shot a 2 shot group with the rest at 59gr of h1000.
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2 shot group from atlas bipod prone.
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3 shot with 60 GRS of h1000. measured .440"
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Shot without my brake on for the groups since this is my hunting load.
I did shoot with the brake once and recoil was nonexistent.
That weather did suck and my fingers hurt with the rain in the mix. But I would say this is gonna be a shooter after 9 rounds.
those are some HUGE FLYS up there. musta been imported from ga.
great news, stay at it and lets see just how good she ll do when she's tuned up.
Got the targets from targetz.com.
Yeah I'll continue with the 130 hunting load. but I'll have to wait for warmer weather to see how things line out. Things look promising so far.
What colour is your metalwork cerakoted bud?
Im not sure about the color. I asked Mark at SAC to match the light sand color on the stock. Looking at the cerakote colors. It very closely resembles benelli sand. It turned out very nice. The coating feels a bit grainier than my creedmoor. I like the texture a lot.
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had a chance to shoot this morning. Yesterday was rain and 30 F.
This morning was sun, little wind and 24 F. I continued with my ladder starting at 60 and going to 62. Used my chrono for the first 2 groups and then stopped working .
Groups were 3 shots prone at 100
60 gr was .456". very close to the other day. 3042 fps
60.5. was .580". was 3075 fps
61. was 1.127". I felt that I pulled the first shot.
61.5. was .318"
62. was. .480"
Until it gets warm again Ill sit on 61.5 gr since others shooting 130 bergers and this load were logging 3150 fps range. Primers are still round.
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Quote from: kalindark on December 07, 2014, 11:35:40 AMUntil it gets warm again Ill sit on 61.5 gr since others shooting 130 bergers and this load were logging 3150 fps range. Primers are still round.
And I thought I was screaming pushing 107 SMK's at that velocity. :o
you got a real fly swatter there! ;D Me likey -
I LIKE!!!!!!
You might want to try 140gr hybrids. I know G.A Precision (specifically the owner, George Gardner) really toots the horn on this caliber. they run them around 3150 fps, which is not screaming hot for this caliber considering you can go much higher than that.
thus, you should be able to see good barrel life out of it.
You might want to try H4831SC which might get you a little more velocity with it being a slightly faster powder and all.
i would say keep load developing until you are in the 2's...it should be able to shoot that from the research I've done on this caliber.
Quote from: bsumoba on December 07, 2014, 01:35:22 PMI LIKE!!!!!!
You might want to try 140gr hybrids. I know G.A Precision (specifically the owner, George Gardner) really toots the horn on this caliber. they run them around 3150 fps, which is not screaming hot for this caliber considering you can go much higher than that.
thus, you should be able to see good barrel life out of it.
You might want to try H4831SC which might get you a little more velocity with it being a slightly faster powder and all.
i would say keep load developing until you are in the 2's...it should be able to shoot that from the research I've done on this caliber.
Thanks for the info. I've read all I can on this round. I know it can shoot even better. I'll spend more time with it this spring when I can shoot better. 24 degrees and spending time on my shooting mat and truck trying to warm my fingers doesn't usually cause good groups.
If I get a day in the 40s I'll go again, hopefully my chrono will work.
Rooks gave me some 140 JLKs I want to try.
I also need to try this caliber suppressed. AAC said to stay under 62000 for pressure. Copper Creek loads to 58000. I'm a little excited to try that as well.
i cant own suppressors in my state.... :-\ :'(
Shooting 140s suppressed with say a 28" 5r barrel what velocities cold you hope to achieve with the Creed you think
I get 2855 fps with my 140 berger vld load in my creed.
The barrel is 6 groove at 28". This was chronoed with my suppressor.
Haven't tested it without.
Quote from: kalindark on December 07, 2014, 05:52:43 PMI get 2855 fps with my 140 berger vld load in my creed.
The barrel is 6 groove at 28". This was chronoed with my suppressor.
Haven't tested it without.
You would expect a little less without it wouldn't you?
I would a bit. However a 28" barrel is long enough to get as much from the creed as you can. I would expect more of a change with a shorter barrel. I should have a 24" barrel creed to compare with in a few months. I'll start a new thread and keep you posted.
How is the SAUM coming along? I drank the cool aid and dont know when my build will be complete.
Ive heard good and bad about the SAUM. The ones that have had trouble with it seem to keep quiet about it though.
I have just over 50 rounds through mine. I dabbled with Retumbo and the 140 hybrids the other day. And I'm still happy.
I shot my 130 vld load at 500 meters the other day and the bullet drop is right in line with 3100 fps. I was shooting at a 6" steel popper and had 2 shots land almost on top of each other and the 3rd missed just left. The first 2 shots were close to the left edge anyways. It was too foggy to shoot out to 1000 yards.
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This was my best group with retumbo. I stopped a 60 gr. but I would venture that h1000 isn't the only powder to use in this cartridge.
I plan to chrono the 60gr load then I may move up a bit more on the charge.
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Chronoed my 2 loads the other day.
130 berger vld with 61.5 gr of h1000 was 3122 fps
140 berger hybrid with 60 gr of retumbo was 3000 fps.
I have a box of 50 once fired brass ready to load. They were annealed and trimmed. I'll retest both loads on fire formed brass .
I plan to continue testing the 140 hybrid in .2 gr increments.
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So I tried the 140 hybrid/retumbo combo again at 200 yards and I dont know what happened but I was lucky to get a 2" group. Thank god I had some of my 130 berger loads to double check and they shot .4 moa in 30 degrees and light misty rain/snow.
I think I'm going to settle on the 130 gr berger hunters and h1000 for now. I did go out today in 22 degree and wind since I switched scopes from my NXS to my Steiner, adjusted my cheek piece and had a new rear bag to check out.
From a clean barrel to the 5-7 rounds for a group. I'm definitely not changing loads.
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Here is a pic from last weeks outing.
That's a sweet shootin' rig
Love those fly targets
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sorry for the side ways pic.
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Another warm 12 degree day in PA. I loaded some more 140 hybrids up with different primers since I can't seem to get the 140 gr bullets and retumbo to repeat my .280" groups again .
Results were depressing, I'm wondering if my 1&8.3 twist just doesn't do 140s. I picked up some more h1000 so now I have enough to do some testing to see if its the powder.
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140 vld with 59.5 gr retumbo was .785"
140 hybrid with 60 gr of retumbo was .785"
136L with 59 gr retumbo was .462"
136L with 59.5 retumbo was .337"
136L with 60 retumbo was .350"
All groups were bipod rear bag off of bench in 12 F
100 yards 3 shots.
Looks like the 136L lapuas will work. Okay I think I have the bug worked out for now. I'll chrono the lapuas when its warmer. I'm sure 40 degree temp increase will shrink the groups a bit as well.
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tried some 160 matrix's today in the SAUM.
loaded h1000 from 56-58 gr
coal was 2.890"
about 5-10 jump. these javelins look like a stretched out SMK
fed 215m
Norma brass 2x fired
56.5 gr was my best group and measured .355"
velocity was 2860 fps and had ES of 12 and SD of 6
the higher charges started to show extractor marks.
58 gr gave me 2936 fps with a SD of 6.
I loaded another ladder up for BMG50 57-59 gr
I'll see if it does better.
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Here is a 160 next to a 140 berger vld.
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I bet those are slugs in the creedmoor. Maybe 2,500fps??
Anyone try 160's in the CM?
Some one will prolly get 2600+ fps from them. Considering lots of us got over 2800 + with 140 gr. They would just roll along.
So I tried the 160s with BMG50 from 57-59 early in the week and groups were right around .7" and I had velocities from 2500-2733 fps. No pressure signs of course. So I walked further up the ladder, went from 59-61 gr.
Went early this morning and didn't chrono them due to the nice spring snow storm leaving 4" behind. I was gaining about 30 fps on each .5 gr increment so I figured I'd be above or right at 2800 fps by 60 GRS with my 26" barrel. I had good groups with 60 and 60.5 gr. The 60 gr load was better but I was sighting in my creeds due to a scope swap and had a few rounds land near where I was shooting. I can't tell if all three went through the same hole or just 2 and I threw the 3 rd shot 2" to the right.
All shots fired felt good and I counted all sighters but I just don't know for sure.
However 60.5 turned out better than I usually shoot off a bipod and bag so I'm really happy. I haven't seen any of the pressure signs I did with h1000. So I may try to work up a bit further and see if I can find a higher node.
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;)
Kalindark,
That rifle of your'n is Pure Sex!
ANyone ANbody???
So how long is the matrix 160gr bullet? Any data on the drop or anything related to the G7 form factor
Quote from: woodyblueballs on December 13, 2015, 07:22:33 PMANyone ANbody???
So how long is the matrix 160gr bullet? Any data on the drop or anything related to the G7 form factor
AppliedBallisticsLLC.com has a G7 of 0.332. The Matrix 160 BTHP data in their Ballistics Calculator also shows the length at 1.51". I hope that these data are helpful.