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Topic: What kind of flags? (Read 339 times) previous topic - next topic

What kind of flags?

So, I have those cheap Home Depot flags, and I tape different lengths of flagging tape to them. The different lengths show different wind speeds, but I really would like to have them on bearings or something to allow freedom for them to turn.
What do y'all use at home and what is used in competition? I will be trying to make something better. Use my wind meter and a fan to try and rig something up.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #1
Google wind flags and you will see ones you can purchase and components you can buy to make them yourself.  Best of luck.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #2
Thanks, probably be a winter project by the looks of it unfortunately.

Edit. I had an idea, I used a hole saw and drilled out some thick UHMW, bored out the center to clearance a 1/4” bolt. On the side I drilled out( stopped before the center ) and found an old aluminum/carbon arrow from my Olympic recurve days, epoxied the screw-in tip into it. ( see if it will hold ). Tomorrow I will drill and tap another 1/4” hole opposite the arrow for a long bolt that I can add nuts of washer to to try and balance the flag. I need to go to Home  Depot tomorrow and buy a sheet of that light plastic card type stuff for the direction indicator. Then weld the center 1/4” bolt to rebar. Hopefully be able to rubber mallet the rebar into the ground and then screw the arrow onto the UHMW once in the field. Oh and add 16-24” of flagging tape to the plastic pointer vane.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #3
How does one breakdown the significance of what flag to dominate the wind call?

It must not be 33% each right??  Assuming 3 flags are used.
Bench =?
Halfway =?
Target =?

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #4
Oh my, you just opened a can of worms with that question. 😁
This thread should be fun.


Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #6
Just my thoughts.. no need for a flag at the bench.. your there feeling it real time.. always been skeptical about having one half way to the target.. if your flag there is 6 feet high and your shooting to a 1000 yards that bullet is way up there in the air half way to the target..chances are the wind is different  30 feet off the ground.. to me the important one is close to the target.. as far as which place is more important.. i really dont know.. i have watched several bullet traces going to a 1000 yards.. and sometimes the wind is pushing them pretty hard in the first couple hundred yards.. other times they start to go side ways in the middle of their flight and other times I've  seen them fly pretty straight most of the way there and then make a nasty hook a 100 yards from the target.. down in the bottoms where i shoot theirs woods 3 or 400 yards on both sides of our shooting position.. thats about 400 yards long.. were up on a pretty good hill shooting down in the bottoms.. that hill drops off at the end of them woods on both sides.. once that bullet hits them open bottoms all bets are off.. lol.. alot of times that will fly pretty straight till it hits the end of that tree line and then take a hard right or left depending on the wind direction.. pretty cool to watch the traces.. when you can see them that is..
Grant

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #7
What about the wind pushing the bullet off course earlier and make a pronounced difference due to time of flight under those conditions? More wind at the target has less time to push the bullet off course?
I agree the height of the bullet will be way different midpoint than an average flag. Something better than nothing?
I like the fact you can easily see the flags at the target for quick changes in aiming point.
I wonder if having a flag at say 50 yards out from the bench will allow learning of the flag tape angle vs the wind meter to compare to the target flag, better than by feel to start with?

Jerry I will gladly read that right after dinner, thanks.  My red plastic flag material had failed to glue to the carbon arrow on my first attempt, got different glue and have everything else mostly solved. ( have some cutting and welding to do )

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #8
Depends on the set up, in competition many firing lines are covered or at least buffered by the activity. There are a lot of people who feel the bullet is still "getting lined out" the first couple hundred yards and is more apt to be pushed around. Short range BR shooters (100-300 yards) literally fill the field between them and the target with flags.

Every situation is different. When I shoot out of my shack with an abandoned farmstead behind it with old cottonwoods and shelterbelts i get no feel for any wind but a head or quaretering wind from the front. I've got surveyors tape at 140 yards then the ground falls away to where it would take a pretty tall pole to see one out to 550 yards so I've got a windsock at the 600 Target and one at the 1000 yard target.
Dave

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #9
The windsock is a great idea, I mean they are designed to do just what we are asking, but when I looked online they were quite expensive. If I had too many flags out I would be confused lol. I’m thinking of 2-3 flags at the most for me.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #10
Mirage is your friend when you learn how to read it.
 It can be as , and sometimes more, beneficial than flags.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #11
^^^^ i agree.. and vegetation if theirs any around..
Grant

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #12
I definitely need to learn that as well, when I’m hunting and post up, I often pull out the wind meter and check my guesses while I’m looking around.

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #13
Significance of bullet drift created by close wind versus far wind is still in debate today. I know which side of the debate I am firmly on, but there is more to  a wind call than just wind speed and direction.

If you conjure up a magical 1000 yd range which has a full value (90° to the bullet path) 10 mph wind blowing only between the 0 -100 yd section, then dead still air between the 100 - 900 yd section, and then a 10 mph full value between the 900-1000 yd section, you can put some numbers into a ballistic calculator to evaluated the affect of a 10 mph wind on the bullet relative to the speed of the bullet at a specific distance from the muzzle and the distance that bullet still has to travel to get to the target.

Using my 6 Dasher chart with 103 gr Bullets (Vapor Trails for BC), MV is 3020 fps. From 0 to 100 yds a 10 mph full value wind will create a 0.4 MOA deviation at the 100 yd mark with a loss of 140 fps by the bullet through that distance. At 900 yds the same bullet would be traveling at 1833 fps and it will decelerate to 1720 fps by 1000 yds for a 113 fps drop between 900 - 1000 yds. Both fps drops are fairly similar. A 10 mph full value wind on this same bullet traveling at 1833 fps at the 900 yd mark will create a 0.9 MOA deviation by the time it hits the 1000 yd target.

So, 0.4 (4 tenths of an inch) deviation between 0 - 100 yds and 0.9 (9 tenths of an inch) between 900 yds and the target. No question: as the bullet slows the 10 mph wind creates a greater amount of deviation. However, the bullet with 0.4 MOA deviation between 0 - 100 yards still has 900 more yds to travel to the target and it’s already 0.4 MOA off course. The actual deviation of this bullet with NO other wind affects on it during the final 900 yds to the target shows as a 3.6 MOA (0.4 x 9) deviation when it arrives to punch a hole in the paper.

On target, the final 100 yards of 10 mph wind moved the bullet 0.9”; on target, the first 100 yds of 10 mph wind moved the bullet 3.6”. 
Bottom line: your close wind is at least as important and likely much more important than the wind way out there at 900 yds.

In real life, with wind active along the entire 1000 yard, bullet wind drift calculation will be much more complicated than this simplified example of looking at wind affect versus distance just in two segments of the total range.

I just threw these calculations together off my ballistic app as I was typing. I invite anyone to do the same scenario with their cartridge data and ballistic calculator. I may have missed something important on the way to generating the numbers. If so, let’s get me corrected. 😊

I’m a far cry from a wind reading expert and the example I just put together doesn’t mean much to me when shooting a record string. It’s almost unheard of to have a steady wind through the 0-1000 yd distance to target. When that occurs every flag on the range is doing exactly the same thing in the wind. I’ve never seen that happen. It’s more likely that the wind is blowing hardest along one section of the range and gentler some where else. It’s not uncommon to see the 900 yd flag standing straight out, the 600 yd flags at half mast and the 300 ones semi quiet. For a wind call I try to pay attention to where the wind is blowing hardest and then factor in the affect of that distance and the wind speed on the bullet. With a heavy wind close I expect more bullet drift than a heavy wind at the end of the range.  I still DQ with some of the vicious wind shifts we see at CRC, but when the wind is playing nice this system works well for me to get that first sighters on target. To get centered up from there, it becomes a combination of what is the bullet on target saying relative to how I’m actually reading the wind. You can learn a lot about specific wind behavior on an unfamiliar range simply by stopping after each sighter and evaluating the correlation between what you thought the wind was doing when you sent your round, versus what it was actually doing based on target POI. Many shooters who don’t take the time to do this will keep firing sighters until they are centered up, but when they get there, they don’t know how or why they got there. 

Re: What kind of flags?

Reply #14
You're dead on with that.  I'll add to that--in PRS matches I shoot in Alabama and Tennessee, we'll see varying physical conditions that affect the wind direction.  We may shoot target arrays between 800-1200 yards on a single stage.  For example treeline effects at 800, open clear cut with a low draw at 1000 and a hill at 1200. These can create R-L wind, L-R wind and possible headwind or tailwind.  We don't have the luxury of flags, but have mirage, tree and grass movement at each target--and impact splash.  But like you said, the wind at 200-400 could possibly be the controlling push on the projectile.  Worst for me is I can be on glass right before I step up to the line (got my calls in my head or on my card) and the wind completely shifts by the time the RO calls "engage."  I try to pick something I can see with my eyes at 200-300 yds down range (or the wind on my face) for my indicator if my plan is ok or an complete bust on "engage."

At least all I have to do is hit the steel plate--the edge of the plate is the same score as the center of the plate....
Jeff
First impressions are forever.....you don't get a second chance