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Topic: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out.... (Read 283 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #15
I agree with the driver having some to do with it, but I know when a shot
is good and if it's going to be a 1/2 inch off or not. These are totally unexplained
flyers that are farther out than normal. I know I didn't pull it off that far and the loads
are very consistent. To me, that means a change of powder or bullet.
I ran 3 very good powders and was still having some issues. So on to the
change of bullet. Like I said, haven't done enough testing to prove these are
better, but the first outing looks promising.
I was going to go to the 180's, but didn't have enough on hand to do a proper test.
The 180's do seem to be very consistent and win.
Some bullets just have the right combination of length to weight ratio, BC, bearing surface
and other things to make them just fly better and more consistent.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #16
The 180 hybrid is generally accepted to have more consistent grouping under a wide variety of conditions than the 184 hybrid.  If I had enough for testing and the remaining big matches in the next couple of months I would be shooting the 180's.  Unfortunately I have not been able to get enough quantity.  I do have some 180 JLK's from one of Swampy's lots but I was waiting to see if I was going to commit with the 180-184 class bullets before using them since my .325 fb would be hanging them way out there to get near the lands.  I'm definitely going to leave the 190's be.

That being said about the 180's, the current 600yd F-open 20 shot record is 200-23x shot by Jim Fowler using 184's in a Shehane.  I was pulling his target when he shot the record and the conditions were tough enough that very few cleans were shot that morning.  I was shocked watching the majority of the 23 fall into a hole the size of a quarter.  I could not even put pasters on the hole; I just pulled the target down, confirmed no shot outside of the X ring and ran it up with the shot fall marker plugged into the only area of the X ring that had enough integrity to hold it in place.  I bet my pit service was under 2 second per shot; Jim made it easy.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #17
Great story. He is obviously a shooter whose skills we would all aspire to.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #18
I have a 284 Shehane with the case capacity to push the the 190’s and especially the 184’s. I’ve dabbled with both and immediately come back to the 180 hybrid. For my system that bullet is just the most consistent day to day performer with highly competitive groupings. I don’t favor this rifle in competition because I give up way too much in recoil management to the lighter 6br variants. It’s not just about the BC it’s also very much about the driver.

The point I’m making here about recoil management has been borne out by one of our other experienced benchrest shooters in an indirect manner that some may have missed. I’ll ask you the simple question: why has Dave spent so much time effort and money exploring every front rest that he can lay his hands on? It doesn’t have squat to do with his Bullets or load.  He is a very smart competitor.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #19
The 184 bullet works great in my straight 284.. it was one combo that just fell in place with little effort on my part .. so much so i haven't had the need to try anything else in it.. as gregg said some combos just work better than others.. i did get the 190's shooting well in my 280ai..  but everything i tried in that stick was a struggle till i made a trigger change.. recoil with the bigger ones is a whole nother animal.. off a bipod and bag i found them comparable to making love to a 270 pound 6'5" Russian woman.. you got to hang onto her everywhere or she'll throw ya around all over the place.. 😁
Grant

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #20
My 7-08 AI had a noticeable preference to the 180s, not a huge difference but noticeable.

Jerry's attempt at flattery is appreciated but worries me over what he's buttering me up for 😁 but he has a very good point about recoil and tracking. He is wrong about me being very smart though, a very smart man would have looked to the rest sooner but I noticed the Sinclair binding up the forend of the Panda in Missouri at The Rendevouz. I think there is a little more room between the sighter plate and the two 600 yard targets there and the 1000 yard target also has a bigger sighter off to the side. I honestly don't remember if it bound on the 1000 yard paper. I'd like to think it did to explain my horrible performance on them. The panda forend does not fit the front bag as well as the Wheeler LRB and the LRB has always shot more consistently all else equal than the Panda.

The nice thing about a front rest and a good rear bag is if you are not centered up on your last POA when you return the gun to the stop in the front of the rest your gun is not tracking correctly. Most times you will get that target back and there will be a flier/fliers out where the gun was pointed when it did not track properly. If your tracking is all over the place the holes in your target will be too most of the time. If the gun is tracking well your target will be smaller most of the time.
Last spring one of the best shooters in the country, possibly one of the very best shooters I've ever seen in the wind said "wherever the guns pointed when you put it back to the stop is where that last shot went" and as I thought about his statement and various past targets over the last few years I realized he was correct.

I think too often we get severe tunnel vision thinking a flier is a powder, primer, bullet or neck tension problem when something as simple as a rushed or not double checking the set up may very well be the culprit. If you are not squared up with the target with your bags not squared up with the gun your gun is not going to recoil straight. If you are not squaring up your body and more importantly your shoulder to the gun it's not going to recoil straight.  If you are not managing  the recoil correct the gun will not track correct.

After competing with some 6.5s and 7s I firmly believe the recoil not the accuracy gives the advantage to the smaller lower BC 6mm BR variants.

So I'm no genius but  if something happens enough eventually I'll quit chalking it up to "shit happens" and try to get to the bottom of it.

For you bipod guys  most of you are better qualified there than  I but I believe the recoil must be managed consistently there too to eliminate fliers
Dave

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #21
For me with a bipod it is critical to have that shoulder squared up on the gun.. also to have the same hold on the gun.. meaning having it held into your shoulder the same each and every time.. i use my off hand to squeeze the ears on my rear bag and maintain that pressure through out the shot.. if im doing everything right then after the shot i can still see my poa in the scope. The bigger the cart is the harder this is to do.. lol.. i see guys holding down on the top of their scopes or forends but i let the front of the gun do what it wants to do..
Grant

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #22
When I'm shooting my .338 off a bipod that's pretty much what I do Grant. Shooting it off a rest is pretty similar because there's no free recoiling it.

You have to be squared up on it with a firm grip on it but you also have to let the recoil push you straight back because the more you try to arrest the recoil the more the muzzle is going to jump up and to the side. It's almost never back on the original POA when it settles so you require the target and rebuild your position with each shot.

It's a handful either way.
Dave

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #23
I agree a 100% on letting the rifle push you back with it .a guy doesnt want to try to contain the recoil but rather go with it.. and with a bipod that goes for any caliber.. no different than in one of the rest you guys use.. let the rifle go as straight as it can to the rear.. i have watched videos on guys shooting off the nice front rest and it amazes me how well the rifle tracks straight back.. then i wonder what effect the torque of a bigger cart has on that.. where the gun is trying to twist up out of that rest.. in the lighter calibers I've seen being shot like that doesn't seem to effect it much. But how does like a 300 variant or 7 mm variant do in rest like that with the torque they produce..
Grant

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #24
My 7-08 AI had a noticeable preference to the 180s, not a huge difference but noticeable.

Jerry's attempt at flattery is appreciated but worries me over what he's buttering me up for 😁 but he has a very good point about recoil and tracking. He is wrong about me being very smart though, a very smart man would have looked to the rest sooner but I noticed the Sinclair binding up the forend of the Panda in Missouri at The Rendevouz. I think there is a little more room between the sighter plate and the two 600 yard targets there and the 1000 yard target also has a bigger sighter off to the side. I honestly don't remember if it bound on the 1000 yard paper. I'd like to think it did to explain my horrible performance on them. The panda forend does not fit the front bag as well as the Wheeler LRB and the LRB has always shot more consistently all else equal than the Panda.

The nice thing about a front rest and a good rear bag is if you are not centered up on your last POA when you return the gun to the stop in the front of the rest your gun is not tracking correctly. Most times you will get that target back and there will be a flier/fliers out where the gun was pointed when it did not track properly. If your tracking is all over the place the holes in your target will be too most of the time. If the gun is tracking well your target will be smaller most of the time.
Last spring one of the best shooters in the country, possibly one of the very best shooters I've ever seen in the wind said "wherever the guns pointed when you put it back to the stop is where that last shot went" and as I thought about his statement and various past targets over the last few years I realized he was correct.

I think too often we get severe tunnel vision thinking a flier is a powder, primer, bullet or neck tension problem when something as simple as a rushed or not double checking the set up may very well be the culprit. If you are not squared up with the target with your bags not squared up with the gun your gun is not going to recoil straight. If you are not squaring up your body and more importantly your shoulder to the gun it's not going to recoil straight.  If you are not managing  the recoil correct the gun will not track correct.

After competing with some 6.5s and 7s I firmly believe the recoil not the accuracy gives the advantage to the smaller lower BC 6mm BR variants.

So I'm no genius but  if something happens enough eventually I'll quit chalking it up to "shit happens" and try to get to the bottom of it.

For you bipod guys  most of you are better qualified there than  I but I believe the recoil must be managed consistently there too to eliminate fliers

This was my point yesterday and Dave just described it very well through his own observations and experiences. What he has described I have also witnessed and have  made successful effort to correct. I have about $3000 dollars invested in just two BR front rests. I am constantly tinkering with them because I know they must perform extremely well for my reloading skills to show themselves on target. I find it amazing that so many knowledgeable shooters just jump to the conclusion that their fliers are some fault of the reloading event or some quirk in their rifle. Isn’t it amazing how much better your reloads get when you make a commitment to practice practice practice on the range!!  😊😊😊

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #25
I guess I'm just a dumb ass and don't know nothing.  >:(
See you guys later.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #26
Gregg Sorry - I don’t agree with your response or even understand it.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #27
I agree with the driver having some to do with it, but I know when a shot
is good and if it's going to be a 1/2 inch off or not. These are totally unexplained
flyers that are farther out than normal. I know I didn't pull it off that far and the loads
are very consistent. To me, that means a change of powder or bullet.
I ran 3 very good powders and was still having some issues. So on to the
change of bullet. Like I said, haven't done enough testing to prove these are
better, but the first outing looks promising.
I was going to go to the 180's, but didn't have enough on hand to do a proper test.
The 180's do seem to be very consistent and win.
Some bullets just have the right combination of length to weight ratio, BC, bearing surface
and other things to make them just fly better and more consistent.

I totally agree with this line of thinking.. not all bullets and powder combinations perform the same.. no matter how much a guy practices or how good his gear is.. certain bullet and powder combinations introduce unexplained fliers.. no getting around it in my opinion.. case in point.. i tried everything i knew trying to get the 153 class bullets to shoot good in 2 6.5 creedmoors .. and it didnt matter what i did it would always have a flier.. used multiple powders.. numerous seating depth along with ocw testing and ladder testing.. the nodes were there but for what ever reason i couldnt keep 5 in the group.. i sent about 400 of them trying.. that combination just didnt work in my 2 6.5 creedmoors.. so fliers happen.. may come from bad technique or it may come from just a bad combination with the bullet and powder and all that goes with it..
Ranger188 is as good at this stuff as any of us are.. always glad to hear what he has to say..
Grant

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #28
Me too and I don’t disagree with that line of thinking. I’m suggesting, no stating, that we are sometimes too ready to accept this cause as the reason for our fliers. There are other overlooked or unrealized causes and inconsistent recoil management is one of  the common ones that shooters MAYBE don’t think about often enough or investigate fully enough. Maybe Gregg is good enough to immediately recognize when he pulls a bad shot. I am absolutely not that good and have found some improvement in my shooting by working on this area of bench presentation. Just sharing my experience, not criticizing anyone’s other thoughts on the subject. Take it for whatever you think it worth.

Re: The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

Reply #29
So I was gonna post a picture of 4 in a .14" hole, with a flier .25" to the right at 3o'clock,  and say what the hell were we talking about. Lol

In line with Dave's testing and comments provided by Jerry theres more to it than meets the eye besides the best tuned load.
No doubt a bad bullet powder combination can give you unexplained "where the hell did that come from moments."
To Dave's rest testing....
I just completed a stock for a AS buddy a Tooley MBR. Jim is a tester like the rest of us, but would always get a nice round 4 shot group with 1 way the hell and gone in left field.
Blocking the stock I noticed what looked like a river flowing up the center of stock that stopped at basically a giant low spot of a lake out on the nose, the toe of the stock was lumpy n bumpy.
I'm curious to see if Jim's groups improve.