Loose Primer Pockets after 2 firings - Need advice

[ltume1978]

My rifle is a Savage Model 12 Long Range Precision Rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. The rifle is extremely accurate (3/8 inch groups at 100 yards with hand loads that are neck sized). I bought a bunch of Hornady factory ammo in 2011 when I bought the rifle with plans to shoot the ammo then reload the brass. I have done that with 200 rounds and am on my third loading of the brass (including the original factory loading). The primer pockets are extremely loose on the brass. The factory ammo was supposed to be loaded with 41.5 grains of H4350 (they provide loading data on the box so that one can duplicate that) which is maximum charge per the Hornady loading manual. However, I had to pull a bullet because one round came with the primer upside down and found that it had 43.5 grains of powder in the case. I have been using Reloader 17 powder for my loads. I experimented with different charges starting at the minimum and going to maximum in 0.4 grain increments trying to find a sweet spot. All of the different charges produced the same level of accuracy and I could not see any signs of overpressure in any of the different charge levels. Since I got the rifle to learn how to shoot out to 1000 yards, I decided to stay at the maximum charge for all loads.

I was expecting to get more than two loadings out of the brass so I contacted Hornady. They requested that I send them some of the ammo for testing as they stated some early brass was soft. However, they want me to get the barrel slugged to confirm bore size as they stated that Savage had made some barrel bores undersized and that may be causing the primer pockets to go loose. I contacted Savage and they did not seem to know what Hornady was talking about. They asked if I had any problems removing spent brass. I told them no, that the spent brass came out of the rifle easily (no sticking). The primers did not show signs of high pressure either. They said that I did not have a problem with the rifle bore size. I don't want to take the rifle somewhere to have it slugged and take a chance on something happening that will mess up a rifle that shoots so well.

I have some questions about reloading for the rifle. I used an empty case with a bullet seated long to determine the length to the lands in the barrel. From that, I seat the bullets 0.025 off the lands (which is a lot longer than what the OAL in the Hornady manual calls for). I don't see any signs of high pressure (primers are not flattening out - have seen that and know what that looks like), no leaking primers, no problems extracting, etc. I know that if I went out to the lands (or within a few thousands of the lands), I could have pressure problems unless I backed off on the load and worked back up. Am I missing anything that could cause the primer pockets to get loose after just two firings?

[Postal]

Any competent smith can slug the chamber with no fear of damage.  I did hear earlier hornady brass was softer, and the brass was changed. The new brass (buying just brass) has the annealing discoloration on the shoulder/neck. I dont know if the new loaded ammo has the annealing discoloration or not.

So.. unfortunately I really cant help you at all, but was wondering what your loads are since I'm working up a load with rl17 as well. Using the 140 amax.

Could you post your data?

Thanks,
Postal (new guy)

[ltume1978]

I am using 42 grains of Reloader 17 (max per the Hornady manual that I have), Federal Large Rifle Match Primers and 140 grain A-max bullets.  Shoots really well in my rifle.

[Darkker]

Few things,
1) Hornady load info.
 Remember there isn't a ammo plant on the planet that loads by weight, they load volume. Changes in bulk density appear as different "weights" of powder; but the volume charged is the same. Book max, and YOUR rifle max are not the same, and rarely will be. Book loads are shot through a very tightly controlled SAAMI min spec chamber, in a universal receiver, with a tightly spec'd bore... Needless to say that really is nothing like a mass produced rifle. Powder lots aren't the same, primer lots, etc. Etc. Don't expect to be able to match book loads, just because they are written there.
2) Reading pressures.
Again, without a Pressure Trace, or other, you can't reliably measure pressure by looking at things. Tightly calibrated copper crushers are famous for having several to tens of thousands of psi swings show the same pressures. NOT tightly calibrated cases and primers aren't going to be better at it... cartridge spec brass (assuming they didn't change the mix) has a tensile strength of 70-75,000 psi. So when you begin to  permanently stretch/deform brass, guess where your pressure is ;-)
3) Getting to 1k.
If you don't know what bullets will survive the transonic cross-over, it's fine. You don't have to push hard at all to stay  supersonic at 1k. So find an accurate load, regardless of velocity.

Yes Hornady has been well known as having some brass issues. They also had many load issues early on with the creed. Velocities and load s and powders and moved a lot eairly-on.
I personally wouldn't slug the bore, although there will be no loss in accuracy or anything. I would take a hammer to the brass, and start over.
Cheers

[swampthang]

this has been a hit or miss topic for several yrs here.
I cant tell you WHY as no one else can either.  im not sure if its the older brass either because I have had a creedmoor since there conception and use nothing but hornady brass. I have had as many as 8 reloads on brass with no pressure signs but on the 9th reload I did have the neck to split but primer pockets have never been an issue. as far as the manuel- they are printed very very low, I guess as a measure of safety. I have been using 42.7 gr of h-4350 and that's not even "hot" a lot of us have went well beyond that in load development . accuracy wasn't the best but still no pressure signs on the brass. I don't know why some people have loose pockets. maybe if we could keep track of the lot# and compare it to each other it could be narrowed down.

[ltume1978]

I do have some new brass that I am loading and shooting to see how it holds up as a test.  I loaded and fired it twice yesterday.  The pockets seemed to still be very tight after the first load.  I will try to get to the second loading in the next day or two.

The new brass shows the annealing on the case.  The factory brass that is going loose did not (Hornady claimed that they polished it off the case).  The ammo will be waiting on them when they get back from vacation/holiday.  Will report what their findings. 

[Rob01]

I have been shooting the Creedmoor since it has been out in 2008 and never came across any soft brass. Have factory lots of ammo that I shoot in matches from 2008 and years since. No problems. It has also been through a custom rifle. Factory rifle chambers might be a little looser and maybe they are allowing the web to spread and pockets to loosen.

As mentioned here in this thread and many times on this and other boards, Hornady loads to a specific pressure and with different lots of powder the 41.5grn load listed isn't the load that is in the case. That load is a safe load and the initial load used when developing the round. It's a good place to start when loading.

ALL of the brass is annealed. They do polish off the anneal look on some ammo just for looks but it is all annealed.

[blt65]

What brand of primers are you using.  I have found Winchester primers (especially the gold ones) to go in very easy.  I would recommend trying some Federal or Magtech primers as that has been the solution to my loose primer issues.

[Darkker]

Federal is slightly larger
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

[ltume1978]

I am using Federal Match Primers.  I did a test with some new Hornady brass (loaded and fired two times the loaded one more time to see how tight the primer pockets would be).  They are all still tight.  That would seem to indicate that the brass that Hornady loaded the ammo I purchased several years ago was soft.  They now have some of that ammo for testing and will be waiting to see what they report.

[memilanuk]

I had some brass from loaded ammo from several years ago also that after the second firing I should have pitched it.  I held onto it and used it for load testing, sighters, etc., pitching cases only when they literally wouldn't hold a primer in at all.  Worked, more or less, but I also managed to etch the crap out of my bolt face.  If those pockets are loose pitch that stuff in the recycle bin and get some more.