The 'ole 4 in/ 1 out....

[rardoin]

  I'm testing another bullet in a new 7 Sherman Short build, a Berger 190 LRH.  Ladder testing showing promising results so I group tested at 965yds with 5 shot groups for each charge sweeping through the charge range that suggested a node.  I used an arbitrary jump that seems to work in the 180/184gr hybrids.  Assuming I did nothing stupid behind the trigger (hypothetical here guys O:) ), no condition change, and the loaded cartridge had identical parameters to the others in the same group where would you go from here?  I have an idea but many heads are better than one.  BTW... .3gr increments in a case with 62.8gr practical powder capacity with H1000.

The first group is the one in question and the second group is the charge weight below the first.

[Ranger 188]

Robin, I've had the same problem lately with the 190's
Changed up my powder to RL23 and been testing @600yds.
In a 4 shot group, would have 3 in 1 inch and 1 "flyer" in the 8 ring WTH
Very frustrating. Perfect weather, so that wasn't it.
Going to load up the same 2 loads and measure and weigh EVERYTHING to eliminate
all possibles.
I'm 99% sure I didn't pull it off that far, maybe 1/2-1 inch but nothing like that.

[rardoin]

190 LRH or A-tip Gregg?  My issues with the A-tip is keeping the vertical stringing tuned out...a constant battle.  I have been told by friends who tested the 190 LRH that they could easily find a tune but there was a vertical 9 or two in every match.      I suspect that is part of the issue with the above group.  However, I was posting more of a hypothetical question assuming I have a good bullet and other load parameters are normalized between cartridges.  My variables as I see them are charge weight, seating depth, and neck tension.  Since I have a loooong freebore in this chamber (not a lot of bearing surface in the case) and I used a 0.0015" below bullet diameter mandrel to set the neck tension my seating pressures are very low for a 7mm; I am seating with most bullets moving at 10psi and topping under 15psi.  A small change in neck grip could mean a large difference is initial pressures.  I also arbitrarily seated at 0.010" off touch as most find the hybrids will shoot reasonably well there.  My charge weights were based on a 600yd 3 shot per charge ladder that suggested a nice broad node at the center of this charge weight test.  I'm thinking on increasing the NT and testing a couple of more mandrel sizes.  I am also going to give it a proper seating depth test.  I am also open the the very, very slight possibility that several seasoned competitors are right in that the 190 LRH will give unexplainable fliers too often to make them worth pursuing in F-class LOL . 

That being said throw out your ideas.

[Ranger 188]

This is with the 190g LRH.
In first testing this weight, I had vertical and dropped down a .1 and it's now
flatter. I know you like more neck tension and I ran these with probably around .002+
These at this powder charge liked touch and .005 into.
I have a looong freebore also, but couldn't find a decide group @ .02  .04 .08 off
So You have only one other direction to go, in.
I chrono a round and it's were it has liked to shoot before, 2940fps
So I'll keep playing with this area and might put some more tension in the neck
and see if this helps with 5-10 shot groups and no flyers.
I'm running a 8 tw.
Did you ever get that 8.25?  What are you running now?

I did try the H1000 before the RL23 and it looked like a shotgun pattern.  Couldn't get a
decent group or anything that looked promising.

[gman47564]

I shoot the same bullet in my 280ai.. i struggled with  this gun forever trying to get it to shoot the 162 and 168 gr. Bullets along with the 184 grain bullet.. finally put a good jard trigger in the thing and its shot everything well ever since.. along with the 190 lrh. I haven't had any issues with throwing one out now and then with them.. one thing that kind of amazes me is everyone thinks you have to have them bullets up there close to the lands or in the lands.. my suggestion is jump the dang things.. get them away from the lands.. my 190lrh in my 280 ai is .037 off and thats close to the lands for me.. but it laid down two 3 inch 3 shot groups on steel at a 1050 the last time i shot it long.. if your having trouble up there close to the lands get the heck away from them.. the seating nodes are alot wider the farther you are away anyway.. my .02 cents..

[rardoin]

Yes, Gregg, this is an 8.25tw barrel.  I note I made a mistake.  I am jumping them 0.100"; I was confusing it with the 184's which I have at 0.010" off.  I'll retest with more neck tension.  Since I found the 184's have enough bullet in the neck to keep everything in place I'll also retest the 190's starting closer in and working out.

[DHuffman]

Been the story of my season Robin. Shot 3 matches in MN last weekend and won lg group and overall in the first match. HG was continually screwed all weekend by fliers but I really think it was wind for the most part. Almost pulled the HG together in the championship match but my group got spread out 6" in the wind. 3-6 moa of wind from the left all weekend with big let offs and pick ups.

I was in the hunt all 3 matches in LG though but conditions were better in LG for all matches. I've got over a month till the SD state 600 yard championship so hopefully I'll get it sorted out.

[jvw2008]

I'm betting you did not weigh your primers in that ladder.

[DHuffman]

I'm betting you did not weigh your primers in that ladder.

LG primers were, HG may not have been for a ladder or two but match rounds were.

[DHuffman]

@rardoin

Your second pic the group looks like a rectangle rotated to it's side with one hole square in the middle is the one that always puzzles me. Anytime I shoot one it's never big but never small, never helps my agg.

[rardoin]

I'm betting you did not weigh your primers in that ladder.

I have not weighed primers in the past 3 years.  I could not absolutely say that it helped but I was mainly shooting 600yds then.  Perhaps I need to revisit that process.  Honestly I hope it does not make a difference as I find it a tedious task .

[DHuffman]

I have not weighed primers in the past 3 years.  I could not absolutely say that it helped but I was mainly shooting 600yds then.  Perhaps I need to revisit that process.  Honestly I hope it does not make a difference as I find it a tedious task .

I don't think it shrinks groups. I did have a round not make the target a couple years ago in competition that resulted in a DQ

The recoil was soft and the report was quieter so it was either a light charge (I think unlikely) or a weak primer. I've been weighing them since.

[rardoin]

Finally submitted to herd mentality.    After a few barrels and a couple of years trying to be competitive at national LR matches and having very inconsistent results I gave up on the long heavy for caliber bullets and pulled out some 184 Hybrids.  I OAL sorted them to 0.004" batches and started testing with H1000.  I have been finding a charge node around 2890's fps that panned out on three separate ladders at 2 different seating depths.  Finally it seem to be consistent and perhaps trustworthy.  I shot several sub 4" 5 shot groups at my 965yd test range with 2" vertical but I shot a screamer on Saturday...my best 5 shot yet at 965.  I hope the load holds up at our 1000yds state championship match this weekend.  I thought I would share.   I guess if shot 1 was not 'out' it could have really been sumthin'.  LOL  BTW, Dave...these were sorted Wolf primers :

[Ranger 188]

WOW, nice group.
We had discussed this before. I also gave up on the 190's
and tried the 184's  Haven't had more than one trip with them
but had 2 good groups @600, one that was 1 inch  and virtually no vertical.
Have to load some more up and make sure it's going to repeat.
I think most of the time the heaviest and highest BC isn't the most accurate.
Look at the BR guys, they all shoot 103-105g bullets, not the 109-115

[jvw2008]

I have a 284 Shehane with the case capacity to push the the 190's and especially the 184's. I've dabbled with both and immediately come back to the 180 hybrid. For my system that bullet is just the most consistent day to day performer with highly competitive groupings. I don't favor this rifle in competition because I give up way too much in recoil management to the lighter 6br variants. It's not just about the BC it's also very much about the driver.